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Rule

Just wondering about the list’s opinions on Super Z ferrules. I have used Super Swiss predominantly and am curious as to any benefits that Super Z’s may have. I understand that they are longer than truncated ferrules but shorter than Swiss’s. Aside from this are there any other differences, and do they perform as well as the Super Swiss ferrules? (Robert Cristant)

    I've tried em, they're not enough cheaper to make up for the difference in quality, they look cheep and it doesn't take much heat for them to come apart. I also think they are made from 12% nickel instead of 18%,

    I'll stay with Super Swiss from CSE myself. (John Channer)

      Depends on who you buy them from. I make mine from 18%, except for sizes 15 and above, they are 12%. I can not find (reasonably priced) 3/8" rod in 18%. As for price, mine are $31 for a two tip, and I believe Tony Larson my even be less expensive. CSE makes a very nice product, but I can not justify the cost.  (Tom Ausfeld)

        NO slam intended to any of those one the list who make ferrules, by using the caps on Super Z, I thought Robert was talking about the ones made by Cortland, who owns the name Super Z. Those are the ones I was talking about, not your's, Tony Young’s, or Rush River Rods. (John Channer)

        If you buy in quantity, CSE Super Swiss runs about $25 (2 males 1 female) a set. (Marty DeSapio)

Rule

I am about to start making my own ferrules. But I'm a little bit confused about all the different names floating around.

What does Super Swiss means? Just another name for Super Z?

I downloaded a construction sheet of the super Z. Does it exist one for step downs also?

Anybody have experience with truncated ferrules? I got a pair of step downs and they are much longer than the super Z, and the truncated are even shorter. Do the give enough support compared to step downs and super Z?

I also noticed on a rodbuilding forum that you could even get truncated step downs... quite messy. Probably some other designs I have forgot. (Tom Simarud)

    Super Z is the path to follow, and is the same, as far as I understand it, to super Swiss. The original Swiss ferrule had rather a weak spot in the design.

    Everyone knows that I think step-downs are Satan spawn, so I won't comment! I rather like truncated, but the smaller contact area requires more fussiness over fit. As a rule of thumb, used with success when spigotting glass and carbon blanks, the overlap length should be about three times the diameter. In other words, the shortest spigots theoretically were, overall, six times the internal diameter of the blank at that point. I have made them shorter and they work, but all the time the margins and tolerances tighten on you! The truncated ferrules I have here seem to be about 2.75 times diameter and they have been subjected to rather a lot of use and abuse without trouble. Probably because they were made to very close tolerances by Rainer Jagusch and in spite of having been fitted by me, in some cases twice as I fiddled with the design a bit on a rod that was a test mule.

    If you decide to make Duronze ferrules you will be kept really busy by contributors to this listserv, including me! (Robin Haywood)

      Yes, I will make them out of Duronze.

      Thanks for the tip about the diameter/length ratio.

      In a way I like the looks of the Step downs, but since they are a lot longer than Super Z they are probably heavier. I'm quite obsessed about weight 4' away from my hand. Are step downs stronger? Maybe truncated step downs would be something?

      As you said Adam I will start with one size (13/64) first. (Tom Simarud)

        I would not have said that step downs were longer of necessity, and, if anything, marginally lighter.

        If you are using Duronze, and the word is that it is not easy to work with, then the weight you save is significant enough to allow you a bit of leeway elsewhere, so you may wish to standardize on the three times diameter, or any other you fancy.

        Once you get good at it why not make some experimental minimalist jobs, say down to two and a half times and see if they work? (Robin Haywood)

        You only really need the ferrule strong enough to do the job. So that being said Super Z have not failed me or anyone else I can think of. Step downs maybe stronger but then again more cane and less metal is better for rod action.

        The real fun is about to start for you. (Adam Vigil)

    Some rods were designed with specific ferrules in mind and with that being said I ignore it and use Super Z style. I make my own.

    Just a bit of advice. Go through steps on some practice material and when you think you have it, start making a single size of ferrule several times. The more you make the better they will be. After you have made several of one size go to another size and repeat. You will find the quality will go up and you will end up with so many ferrules that you will not need to make them for a few years. (Adam Vigil)

Rule

While researching ferrules in the various places, I have found the LeClair tables and the Super Z tables. Are there other tables of dimensions that should be considered when researching ferrules for various application? Is there a De facto standard for: Standard ferrules, truncated ferrules and the ever famous "you should never use anything but these"?

I am looking into trying to make my own from silicon bronze, NS and Al. The more I read, the more I am convinced our suppliers are doing a very good job of providing us with good merchandise. They are, however, limited in their offerings due to the size of the market so making them could provide so rod weight reductions.  (George Hills)

    How about this table for step downs?  I don't think I can send it as an attachment, but you may be able to copy it back into a spreadsheet.

    Payne Step Down Ferrule Dimensions (modified)

    Base ferrule dimension off of butt section.

    Male

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    Slide
    Bamboo

    Nominal

    Outside
    Slide
    Outside
    Slide
    (64ths)
    Nominal
    OAL
    Length
    OD
    Length
    OD
    9
    .141
    1.310
    .590
    .141
    .720
    .157
    10
    .156
    1.500
    .700
    .156
    .800
    .173
    11
    .172
    1.730
    .760

    .172

    .970

    .188

    12

    .188

    1.850

    .780

    .188

    1.070

    .204

    13

    .203

    1.890

    .810

    .203

    1.080

    .220

    14

    .219

    1.825

    .875

    .219

    1.095

    .235

    15

    .234

    2.055

    .885

    .234

    1.170

    .251

    16

    .250

    2.100

    .950

    .250

    1.150

    .266

    17

    .266

    2.240

    .950

    .266

    1.290

    .282

     

     

     

    Slide

    Bamboo

    Nominal

     

    Inside

    ID

    Inside

    ID

    (64ths)

    Nominal

    Length

    (64ths)

    Length

    (64ths)

    9

    .141

    .830

    7

    .480

    8

    10

    .156

    .945

    8

    .555

    9

    11

    .172

    1.030

    9

    .700

    10

    12

    .188

    1.050

    10

    .800

    11

    13

    .203

    1.070

    11

    .820

    12

    14

    .219

    1.180

    12

    .645

    13

    15

    .234

    1.325

    13

    .730

    14

    16

    .250

    1.365

    14

    .835

    15

    17

    .266

    1.405

    15

    .835

    16

     

    Nominal (64ths)

    Nominal

    Tab Length

    9

    0.141

    0.240

    10

    0.156

    0.250

    11

    0.172

    0.260

    12

    0.188

    0.290

    13

    0.203

    0.310

    14

    0.219

    0.350

    15

    0.234

    0.375

    16

    0.250

    0.400

    17

    0.266

    0.425

    Female

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Nominal

     

     

    Welt

    Female

    Bamboo

    Slide

    (64ths)

    Nominal

    OAL

    OD

    OD

    Length

    ID

    Length

    ID

    9

    .141

    1.990

    .221

    .181

    1.335

    .141

    .610

    .141

    10

    .156

    2.060

    .236

    .196

    1.305

    .156

    .710

    .156

    11

    .172

    2.130

    .252

    .212

    1.310

    .172

    .775

    .172

    12

    .188

    2.265

    .268

    .228

    1.420

    .188

    .800

    .188

    13

    .203

    2.275

    .283

    .243

    1.390

    .203

    .840

    .203

    14

    .219

    2.380

    .299

    .259

    1.455

    .219

    .880

    .219

    15

    .234

    2.520

    .314

    .274

    1.565

    .234

    .910

    .234

    16

    .250

    2.635

    .330

    .290

    1.615

    .250

    .975

    .250

    17

    .266

    2.700

    .346

    .306

    1.655

    .266

    1.000

    .266

     

    Nominal (64ths)

    Nominal

    Tab Length

    9

    0.141

    0.240

    10

    0.156

    0.250

    11

    0.172

    0.260

    12

    0.188

    0.290

    13

    0.203

    0.310

    14

    0.219

    0.350

    15

    0.234

    0.375

    16

    0.250

    0.400

    17

    0.266

    0.425

    Sorry I don't remember who sent it originally, sometime in 2005.  (Neil Savage)

      The email from you was perfect for copying into Excel. The digest version and the archive versions lost their formatting.

      I am attaching the Excel file in hopes that is can be had in the archives. I have sometimes be able to get attachments this way.

      Are there any other lists, tables or examples that you could forward to me? I will make the whole thing available when I have collected as much information as possible. (George Hills)

Rule

I am still working on collecting Ferrule information. I have received several tables and charts but am having some problems with terms when it comes to Super Swiss and Super Z. I have the patent information on Super Z and tables of dimensions. What is the Super Swiss? If different than Super Z, how so?

Truncated is 2/3rds of something. What is the something and where might I find the dimension of both?

Any help appreciated.  (George Hills)

    Does anyone on the list make ferrules for sale?  If so, what sizes and how much do you charge?  Someday I hope to be able to make my own, but for the time being I'll concentrate on refining my blank building skills.  I just finished #1 and #2 is almost completed, #3 is rough planed, and #'s 4, 5, 6 & 7 are already promised to my pals, so I will be needing lots of supplies in the coming months.   (Tom Key)

      Tony Larson makes and sells ferrules.  (Timothy Troester)

Rule

I am making a Payne 209 and I was wondering about the type of ferrule I should use.

But this raised another question -- one that I am sure has been discussed before.  That is:  If I built the same taper twice (which I actually intend to do) and use step down on one, super Z on the other (Or used a truncated ferrule) -- what could I expect in terms of actions.  Is it that different?  And, if so, shouldn't stress curve graphs depict these differences?   (Matt Baun)

    I don’t have a Payne 209 taper but I looked at the effects of ferrules on a 101.

    The greatest difference in a stress curve is seen at the butt where the bending moment resulting from the mass of a ferrule is greatest.  If you compare a standard ferrule Vs a truncated ferrule, the stress difference at the butt is about 3%.  This results in a difference in deflection of about ½ inch at the tip.  I’ll leave it up to you to guess whether you can notice that.

    The effect that is difficult to quantify is the added stiffness the ferrule creates due to the metal sleeve over the bamboo.  The standard ferrule will cause more localized stiffening because it’s longer.  Stress and deflection curves don’t factor this effect.  (Al Baldauski)

Rule

Is there a chart somewhere like the Super Z chart for Step-down ferrules? If so, please point me to it.  (Don Schneider)

    Payne Step Down Ferrule Dimensions (modified)

    Base ferrule dimension off of butt section.

    Nominal in 64ths

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13

    14

    15

    16

    17

    Nominal

    0.141

    0.15

    0.17

    0.18

    0.20

    0.21

    0.23

    0.25

    0.266

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Male

    OAL

    1.310

    1.500

    1.730

    1.850

    1.890 

    1.825

    2.055 

    2.100

    2.240

    Slide Outside Length

    0.590

    0.700

    0.760

    0.780

    0.810 

    0.875

    0.885 

    0.950

    0.950

    Slide OD

    0.141

    0.156

    0.172

    0.188

    0.203 

    0.219

    0.234 

    0.250

    0.266

    Bamboo Outside Length

    0.720

    0.800

    0.970

    1.070

    1.080 

    0.950

    1.170 

    1.150

    1.290

    Bamboo OD

    0.157

    0.173

    0.188 

    0.204

    0.220 

    0.235

    0.251 

    0.266

    0.282

    Slide Inside Length

    0.830

    0.945

    1.030 

    1.050

    1.070 

    1.180

    1.325 

    1.265

    1.405

    Slide ID - 64ths

    7

     8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13

    14

    15

    Bamboo Inside Length

    0.480

    0.555

    0.700 

    0.800

    0.820 

    0.645

    0.730 

    0.835

    0.835

    Bamboo ID - 64ths

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13

    14

    15

    16

    Tab Length

    0.240

    0.250

    0.260 

    0.290

    0.310 

    0.350

    0.375 

    0.400

    0.425

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Female

    OAL

    1.990

    2.060

    2.130 

    2.265

    2.275 

    2.380

    2.520 

    2.635

    2.700

    OD for Welt

    0.221

    0.236

    0.252 

    0.268

    0.283 

    0.299

    0.314 

    0.330

    0.346

    Female OD

    0.181

    0.196

    0.212 

    0.228

    0.243 

    0.259

    0.274 

    0.290

    0.306

    Bamboo Length

    1.335

    1.305

    1.310 

    1.420

    1.390 

    1.455

    1.565 

    1.615

    1.655

    Bamboo ID

    0.141

    0.156

    0.172 

    0.188

    0.203 

    0.219

    0.234 

    0.250

    0.266

    Slide Length

    0.610

    0.710

    0.775 

    0.800

    0.840 

    0.880

    0.910 

    0.975

    1.000

    Slide ID

    0.141

    0.156

    0.172 

    0.188

    0.203 

    0.219

    0.234 

    0.250

    0.266

    Tab Length 

    0.240

    0.250

    0.260 

    0.290

    0.310

    0.350

    0.375 

    0.400

    0.425

    Chris also sent me a step down dimension spreadsheet.  (Chris Obuchowski)

Rule

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