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I'm in the process of rereading Garrison/Carmichael for about the 10th time. Noticed tonight while sitting on the throne and reading that Garrison ran the freshly glued strips through the binder -- small end first --. I've never done it that way, and was wondering if any of you have words of wisdom there...(Harry Boyd) I have tried it that way. It seems I get more twist. I am not sure why. Also, I seem to get fewer bends and sweeps when doing it butt first. I haven't thought about it much. When I am gluing I seem to be otherwise occupied, if you know what I mean. (Timothy Troester) Words of wisdom: DON'T DO IT! (Martin-Darrell) I tried it once, after reading about it. The tip section was very difficult to control, so I quickly reversed it and wrapped it from the butt end before everything started to set up. I haven't tried it again since then. (Steve Weiss) On page 78 of Howell's book he states "Place the section in the binder, ferrule end first. (The tips will go ferrule end first as well.)" I do thickest cross section first, meaning that butt sections start on the end of the rod and tips start at the ferrule end. Don't ask why I do it this way (must have had some short term memory loss in the early days of rod building. (Brad Love) I know I used to bind the tips first , not sure why but it was probably from one of the books. However for the last couple of years I have started at the thicker end as it seems to be easier to control and I get less twist. This may vary depending on the type of binder which you use. (Ian Kearney)
I use a 4 string binder, sort of like the one I designed that appeared in The Planing Form in 1994 and the Best of the Planing Form. I kind of copied Dawn Holbrook's, Tony Maslan's, and Dickerson's binders. I made the binder as an improvement over Bob Milward's great design. The only thing I did not like about Bob's design is that his has the to disks facing each other -- mine, (Winstons, Dickersons Powells and on and on) have one disk inside another so that you can easily get your hands and fingers where the action is. My section come out straight, especially if you start tips skinny end first. All that being said, I have never had any problem with the Garrison binder, either. I just like making machines. The last rod I made I glued the old fashioned way -- by hand with the string tension being my foot trapping the binding string against the floor. (Chris Lucker) I built a version of Milward's binder, photos of which my be seen on Todd Talsma's Tips web site (here), but were I to build another binder I believe I'd make one of Chris's design, for exactly the reasons he stated. (Martin-Darrell)
Don't, no way, save , borrow, beg, have to have a binder. You won't want to ruin a lot of work by the time you get that far. (AJ Thramer) No binder, no problem. Many on the list hand bind and the only problem I might see you having is the TiteBond II doesn't have a very long working time. You might consider the TiteBond Extend. I don't have any experience with it, but from what I've seen bounced around the list on it, you will have a bit more working time with it. As for being doomed to a crooked section, nah... just roll it out while wet and get it as straight as you can, then when it's dry, you can use very low heat to slowly warm it up and straighten out any sweeps you may still have. You might consider using a hair dryer for your straightening with the TiteBond, as I don't believe it's as heat resistant as many of the age old accepted glues, like URAC, resorcinol, Epon, Nyatex, etc. Someone with more experience on TiteBond will surely chime in on this. (Bob Nunley) Don't worry about not using a binder, there's many a fine rod been glued and bound by hand. (Paul Blakley) Build a binder!!! Shouldn't take more than a few hours & cost is minimal ($25 or less) Binding by hand is feasible but Titebond is a fast setting glue & you'll use up a lot of time in hand binding that would be better spent on straightening before glue setup, & trust me if you bind by hand it will need straightening. If you're dead set on hand binding do several dry practice runs cause it gets harder when you're hands are covered in glue! Finally, in a pinch you can just build the binder cradles, hang a weight on the belt & just pull the belt manually. Binder pulleys ad efficiency & convenience to a binder, but aren't 100% needed for function. But I strongly suggest building a binder! (Dave Kenney) Indeed it should take no more than a few hours and less than $30 or so. Try Tom Smithwick's version of the binder. Maybe someone on the list remembers where the plans are on the web. The archives should have info as well. It works great. (Andy Harsanyi) Not at all! I bind by hand all the time. My method is maybe a bit archaic, but it works. Before binding I put a long strip of masking tape on my planing forms, and with my finger, push it in the groove. I put the spool of binding thread on the floor and keep a tension on it with my (bare) foot. I wear surgical gloves and just turn the rod with my fingers, while keeping a reasonable tension on the thread with my foot. I start with the thick end and move to the fine end and back. I then roll the blank under my two hands on the floor, and usually it is almost perfectly straight. I little bending by hand sometimes, but the rolling is easier. I think rolling under a board would be even better... Check if there is a twist in the blank and correct. When it looks straight, I put the blank in the groove of the forms, protected by the tape, and secure the blank with little pieces of tape to keep it in the groove under a bit of pressure. I use PU glue, and after an hour or so (I am very impatient!!!) you can remove it. Leave the string on for another couple of hours. Comes out so straight I hardly ever straighten. (Geert Poorteman) Interestingly enough, I have a binder but never use it. I still bind every rod by hand. I guess I just prefer it. Doesn't do much for my carpal tunnel though. (Randall Gregory) Comments about the working time and heat straightening problems of Titebond II got me thinking I might look into using Resorcinol instead -- does it have to be measured by weight? This would mean another purchase (scales) for me and the budget is tight. Does anyone have a way or formula so I can mix resorcinol by volume somehow? (Mike Mihalas) I'd be more inclined to suggest a polyurethane glue, i.e., Gorilla Glue, Probond II, etc. What do some of you guys who use this think? Does he have enough working time to bind and straighten, considering this is his first rod? I don't think the TiteBond, nor the resorcinol will give you enough time, at all. (Martin-Darrell) I use Titebond and bind by hand. However, you MUST be very efficient AND organized to beat the set time and manage to do your straightening. BUT it can be done. (Randall Gregory) My answer to this is yes. My first rod was built using this glue and I didn't have any trouble gluing and straightening before the glue started to set. But of course I used a binder also. I did try a practice run trying to bind a rod by hand and that was all it took. I pulled the string off and I went looking in the garage for the hardware I need to build a binder. The cost of building my Garrison binder top the scale of a whopping $10 for one pulley, fender washers, and a spring. (Robert Holder) Traditionally Resorcinol is mixed 100 parts resin to 20 parts catalyst by weight. I have been told that you can mix by volume using 3 parts powder (fluffed up) to 4 parts liquid, however, I have not gone far enough to try this and would suggest that you mix a small quantity and try it on some scrap bamboo before doing a rod. (Jacques Follweiler) The resorcinol is very easy to use and the directions are on the can to mix it by volume. (AJ Thramer) I use resorcinol on my rods and I mostly hand bind them. Works fine for me. (Rob Clarke) There ya' go. The voice of experience. My concern was that he might not have enough time with this being his first rod. (Martin-Darrell) It occurs to me that if that people building their first rods are really worried about binding time, probably the most logical thing would be to use a slower glue at first; if you use a binder and run into some sort of faecal storm, you've got enough to worry about without having the blank glued to the the binder and to two separate bits of string, one of which has no end, and all of which are bonded to your gloves. Ask me, as they say, how I know that! (Peter McKean) I honestly don't think that you should try to do the rod with no binder. I understand the situation that you are in. This can be an expensive hobby. I think that you can build a binder for nearly nothing. My first was built from scrap boards I had around the house. My pulley was a jig sawed wheel, my weights, sand filled tin cans. It was not much, but it worked, and when I could afford it I made a much better one, but still I think the cost was less than $10. (Ralph Moon) I have only built a few rods, but I may be able to help. It is perfectly possible to bind by hand, but I wouldn't use Titebond. It sets up too quickly. I'd use Epon epoxy, which has a very long pot life. Nyatex epoxy has a long pot life, too, but it requires heat setting. (Bill Hoy) Both myself and my close friend, Tony Young in Australia have built both Garrison and Tom Smithwick’s design binders. They are more bother than they are worth. Both of us use an old Thompson rod wrapper that clamps to the edge of the table and is adjustable for the tension on the spool. Neither one of us build so many rods that is is a problem wrapping by hand. Only takes a few minutes. The biggest reason is that it gives us complete control of the tension that we want to use. Can be helpful, especially in the node areas, if your planing is not up to snuff. It's my opinion that of all the rod building equipment that we need to either buy or build, just starting out, a binder would be right at the tail end of the list. (Jerry Young) To wrap by hand get a large fly tying bobbin and load it with button thread (strong). Glue the blank up (I prefer Titebond II Extend as it gives you more working time then regular TB II) and temporarily tape it closed in a few spots. Now, holding the blank in one hand wrap over the thread to start and letting the bobbin hang with a couple feet of thread out roll the blank between your fingers so the thread spirals down the blank. When you approach the tape remove before proceeding. Also , when you use up the thread just pull more out. When you get to the end just turn the rod over and work back crossing the wraps already done. Finish with a few half hitches . You do not need to put pressure on the thread, just the weight of the bobbin will be enough. Just be sure to roll fairly tight between your fingers. Straighten the rod and take out any twists as soon as possible. As far as poly any good quality will do. Also the hand cramps you experience binding by hand will give you an incentive to buy or make a binder. (Marty DeSapio) I use a big C-clamp on the back of the bench, which holds two bits of wood separated by two strips of felt; I run the thread between the pieces of felt, and then wrap the rod. You can vary the tension as much as you like. The whole process is a pain in the arse! A binder is better! (Peter McKean)
I use masking tape for just over 1 revolution starting on spline #1, then slit the tape between spline #6 and #1, lay it out, glue it, roll it back up and proceed to the wrapper. Tape is 1/4" wide and applied about every 12" to 18". One thought that has come to me is - what if the tape was left on and just bound over? Would it interfere with binding and perhaps cause open joints? Your tips and thoughts? (Kurt Clement) Look at your local discount store for the blue colored tape that is not quite so sticky. I keep an old bodkin handy and use the needle to start unwrapping at the corner of the slit. I don't think you would want to put a section in the oven leaving the tape on, that would be ugly. (Jerry Young) Well I have left the tape on (by oversight) and the section in question came out acceptable. I only tape in three places, either end and the center of the section using 1/2 wide tape. I also keep an Exacto knife and blade at the binder for cutting thread and helping in the removal of the tape. I try to remove the tape when it is being supported by the first set of cradles on the binder (I use a Garrison style). (Brad Love) When I use the Garrison binder for binding to Heat Treat, the tape is wrapped opposite to the rotation of the blank in the binder. A folded tape tab is left on the tape that is wrapped around the sticks. When cranking the blank through the binder and the tape gets close to the belt, hold the tab and keep cranking. The tape will roll off as you turn the blank. The tab was left at the slit in the tape so that the tape would come off in one strip. I used to do the same when gluing before I got the four string binder. Now I leave a tab, it makes it easy to grab and unwrap. (Tony Spezio) I use the blue tape and keep a supply of round toothpicks handy. When I wrap I have one nearby that I use to slide under the tape and start it off so I can grab it with my fingers and finish removing it. The toothpicks are disposable, no cleanup, and are soft enough I don't gouge the cane. I use the Nyatex glue. This seems to loosen the grip of the tape as well. I don't know if other glues affect the tape adhesive differently. (Jon McAnulty) I use 3 tapes only on a 48" section - 4 on a 56" section with all 1/2" wide masking tape. There is always some of the glue that seems to stick somewhere. You "might" get some between the strips hence removal is prudent. (Don Anderson) I used Probond for my blanks, but I believe they are both similar, any way I left a little tap when I taped them together and found that when I glued them the tape would just slide off. the slickness of the glue allowed my to just push off the tape with my finger nails. (Tim Stoltz) I have just the opposite problem. The tape does not stick. It seems as though my glue gets all over the adhesive side of the tag end of the tape, and the glue never has time to get tacky enough to hold while putting it through the binder. Getting it off in time has never been a problem. I use standard masking tape, whatever is the cheapest, and URAC for glue. I have found success by rolling the rod along a board after glue up as suggested in the literature. I have also experimented with a long homemade vice that forces the rod to become straight with no twist. I have had mixed success with the later, so I can be a firm proponent of the vice. It seems to me the binder could be improved by not twirling the rod, but twirling the wraps around a blank that is help in place. Much like the JW rod wrapper. (Taylor Hogan) A Smithwick binder works on that concept and that is what I use and have been very happy so far. (Tim Stoltz)
I have not glued up yet and was wondering... would a possible approach (at least with some benefit) be to take two vises placed at a distance between each other that would allow me to take the rod section from the oven (during heat treating) and place the ends in each vise with a "counter twist" in it and allow it to cool. (Doug Hall) That would probably work, but have you thought about just raising your binder tension for heat treating and work the twist out before you heat treat. What I mean is, that if you raise your binder tension where it's hard to move the strips in the string, then once you do get them moved, maybe they'll stay in place during heat treating and hold their straightness when they cool. I've been using the Bellinger Roughing mill for a long time, and punched a lot of sections out in it for both planing forms and the MHM, and I've never had a problem with a section twisted like that. No idea why it happened, but you should be able to get it cured before you glue up. (Bob Nunley) If the sections aren't glued up yet, what makes you think they are twisted?? If they are just taped together for binding, or bound prior to heat treating, then either the tape or the binding job is twisting them. Just figure out why and fix it before you glue, or face having to untwist the glued sections with heat. I have had lots of twists in the past (I think I have that problem figured out now, knock on wood), and they can be straightened, it just isn't any fun. (John Channer)
I like to use two color's one for tip's Other for Mids and Butt's It helps me with the size! (Ron Revelle) Macramé thread works well, you can get it in neutral color. I use it to bind for heat treating. (Steve Weiss) Colors are fine. I use red on the tips because it's easier to see twists and such... which, by the way, are not NEAR as common since going to a 4 string binder. (Bob Nunley) I use any color I can get hold of from the local upholsterer. It does bleed a bit in the oven, but it is VERY superficial, and is gone by the time the rod is dressed. (Peter McKean)
I made a small tension measuring device with a piece of copper tubing, caps, spring and a rod with a ring in the end. Use weights to set marks for tension desired. (Steve Trauthwein)
My shop has two benches. One fixed to the wall and one that comes out at 90 degrees from the first. I work on the second one and have tools and such on the other. I clamp my binder to the bench and it is far enough from the other that only a small portion of a section needs to extend under the other bench. The first tip went well but the second all of a sudden didn't want to turn in the binder anymore. Looking to my left I saw the reason. The tip got hung up in a terry cloth towel I keep hung there. Cool, I've made a spiral rod was my first thought. I got the tip out of the towel and figured what the heck, I got to straighten it anyhow, I continued. The binding string broke. Hmmm, okay, I've only got 12 or so inches bound so I'll just reverse everything, remove the string and start at the beginning again. No problem, I'm not dead yet. Hey! What's happening here? It won't go back any further. Dang! The tip found the support to the bench. Boy, these parabolics sure do flex deeply. Finally got it bound now time to straighten. I'm going to tell you that was one heck of a spiral to get out. But what was that noise I heard as I was working it out? Did something break? I was real near the end so I'm hoping that whatever broke is in the 2 inches of extra cane at the end and if not that the Epon or tip top will keep it together. Obviously, as of today my dues are current and I'm a member in good standing. That is comforting knowing that the next steps will include the use of the lathe. (Tim Wilhelm)
However, I am not a production rodmaker. If I did it full time I might think differently. (Jeff Schaeffer)
For drive belt 1 pound for tips 1.5 pounds for butts. I actually use a thread tensioner for the continuous drive belt now. As for thread tension 1 pound is usually good. (Adam Vigil)
But what is the technique, style, procedure for binding by "hand"? (sans contraption) A detailed explanation would be appreciated. (It must have it's fine points and refinements). (Edward Miller) The most obvious advantage to hand binding is kind of the lack of gadgets. I have a binder, which I used to use; but have gone back to doing it by hand again. I just have a 9" G-clamp at the back of my bench, and it holds to the benchtop a sandwich of two pieces of hardwood and two layers of felt sheet. The thread runs between the layers of felt, and the tension is easily varied by tweaking the handle of the G-clamp. I have a 6'0" X 9" sheet of plate glass, to which I stick a couple of layers of newspaper (using just masking tape) and this provides a flat and easily cleaned surface on which to work. I also bang a couple of 6" nails into the benchtop up toward the left hand end, and the function of that is to stop the free end from falling off the back of the bench when you are working down close to the end - sounds a bit obscure, I know, but if you try the hand binding thing you will certainly see why I do that. I get no twists, very straight blanks, no glue lines; and cleanup consists of pulling up the newspaper, taking off the nitrile gloves, and throwing the whole lot out! Any Epon that gets past the newspaper and any alcohol cleanup just scrapes off with an old plane blade when dry. No doubt, if one were in serious rod production, a binder would be pretty well a must, but I am building only about 10-15 rods a year at this time, and I kind of think that cleaning up the binder would be too much like hard work. (Peter McKean) Like Peter, despite having a good Garrison style binder I prefer to bind by hand. As I only make three rods in a good year ( this year it looks like I may even finish four !)due to work, family and fishing all year round, I don't find this a problem. In fact I am very happy with hand binding and often wonder why I even bothered having a binder made. (Paul Blakley) Like all aspects of rod making, you have to sift out all the alternatives and decide what is best for you. I do not believe in binding by hand, and my reasoning is thus, be if flawed or truth. First I believe that the best glue joint is the one that is under most pressure. Second, binding by hand is limited by the breaking strength of the binding cord. (Although I doubt that hand binders ever reach that amount of tension.) Finally the Garrison binder does NOT depend on the binding cord to make a tight bond. The binding cord is merely to secure the compression applied by the drive cord. Now I can myself pick out a number of assumptions I have made that might be open to argument, but like I say, you have to pick and choose what you want to do. I have (thanks to Chris Bogart and a lot of time spent tuning it up) a Garrison binder that gives me straight blanks and the only twists that I ever have in my rods are those that I intentionally make when I am making spiral rods. Take a little time to analyze the Garrison style and other binders and see which one gives the most pressure on the glue joint. What is more. I think I can probably bind faster than a hand binder, but maybe that is bragging. (Ralph Moon) I'm impressed Peter. Not only with your ability to avoid twists, but also with the number of rods you're making. I only manage to make 4-5 rods per year. I started out binding by hand. I got one of those thread tensioners that consists of a small "C" clamp with the handle replaced by a screw and the tension supplied by a wing nut. I was just rotating the strips in my hands and winding the thread directly from the tensioner onto the rod. By the time I finished binding a 3 piece 2-tip rod, my hands and forearms would be aching. I invariably wound up with crooked sections and twists in them. Ten minutes or so of straightening could get rid of the worst of the kinks and sweeps in the blanks, but I had to wait until the glue had set, and use heat to remove the twists. Now I have a homemade Bellinger-style Garrison binder. I don't bother to clean up the binder except to put a new belt on it after gluing up a rod. If the buildup of glue starts to bother me, the dried glue readily flakes off of the Delrin pulleys and aluminum cradle. Binding goes much faster, and the blanks come right out of the binder straighter than I could ever get them after binding by hand. I just take them from the binder and hang them up to dry. I wouldn't want to go back to binding by hand, but I also would not let the lack of a binder keep me from making rods. (Robert Kope) Ralph, I am absolutely certain that you can bind faster by binder. No question. And probably tighter, too. Robert, I agree that one butt and 2 tips leaves the hands and forearms pretty much knackered. But I still find the hand-binding process quite adequate for my needs; and I certainly don't have any reason to question the adequacy of the bond formed using this technique. (Peter McKean) I have a Garrison type binder, but I used to bind by hand. Still do sometimes. I use a spinning reel clamped to the edge of a table and set the drag to get tension on the line. I also use monofilament fishing line to bind. The mono stretches a bit and is able to slip a little as I wrap so any unevenness in tension gets evened out. Don't use mono to bind strips for heat treating, mono melts and burns. I space the masking tape about every four inches apart, leave the tape on and bind over it. I do this because the tape holds the strips in alignment and doesn't let them move during binding. It is a little more difficult to remove the tape after the glue dries, but twists and kinks are reduced. Leaving the tape on does not reduce large sweeps though. The minuses to binding by hand is it takes longer than using a binding machine, so make sure you have a glue with a long working time, and I get cramps in my fingers and thumbs. The only advantage to binding by hand is you don't have to buy/make a binding machine. (Darryl Hayashida) I built a simple binder for hand binding and works simply and quickly. Basically a 1'x 2' piece of plywood with two pieces of 2x4 screwed to on edge with a two inch gap between. Each 2x4 has a couple of screw eyes screwed in alignment for the trough. On the back side of the plywood is a bolt with two spring loaded Teflon washers for tensioning. I leave the tape on until just before the thread winds over. When you get to the other end of the section, I clove hitch a couple of knots and the reverse the process. (Pete Van Schaack) With all due respect to those who have responded in favor of hand binding, I don't think that you should allow the opinions of these few people to make hand binding seem so good. Hand binding can be done and done well, but I really think that is is about the most unnatural movement that you can do with your wrists and hands. I try to never do it, even though sometimes I have bound my hand to heat treat in fixtures that don't run through my binder so well. One of the keys to binding a straight rod as I see it shown in the designs of Tom Smithwick and others is good support. Tom's new binder could be made in an afternoon, and I really believe it could give you great blanks time and time again. It does not allow the tip end to dip down and cause a twist or bend as the last part of the tip comes through. There is no way that you can support a blank suitably by hand while binding. Glue clean up is not a big deal. Use vinegar with epoxy, water with URAC and Resorcinol, and use alcohol with a polyurethane glue. The guys who really know how to use a binder (like Jeff Walker at Winston) are applying the right pressure with a thumb or some system (Mr. Jim Payne had a foot tensioner). Just because you have a machine does not mean it will do all the work for you. I recommend you get a binder if you can afford one, and if not, bind by hand. I think any well tuned binder would be superior and safer than hand binding in the long run. I am sorry, but I really think that in rodmaking I am likely to prefer the right machine to a hand skill. The only exceptions being wrapping the guides, sanding the blank, and buffing. I believe a beveler is better than a hand plane, a dip tank and motor better than a brush, a disc sander better than a file, bandsawing better than a froe, and lapping ferrules best done in a lathe. Heck, they don't bust my b-lls about owning so many tools for nothing...and yes, I know I will catch some serious cr-p for this one. Fire away! (Bob Maulucci) I have to agree with about 85% of your statements. Splitting by hand is still better than bandsawing your strips, and the only way real men build rods *g*. (Harry Boyd) Hand binding may be the way to go if one is going to build only a single rod but for the more serious rod builder it's better to have a four string binder of some type. I've tried hand binding, the garrison type binder and the 4 string binder and like the 4 string binder best by far. And it's not all that expensive to make one either. I'm with Bob Maulucci on this topic! (Ray Gould) I think any well tuned binder would be superior and safer than hand binding in the long run. Bingo! After the planing form and plane the binder is most important. Hand planners have to much time invested in each strip to risk loosing it all binding by hand. I have Jeff Wagner’s new motorized binder and it will bind a section straight as an arrow and within a few seconds. (Adam Vigil) Last post in defense of the hand binder, you will all be pleased to know. I have no quarrel with those who use binders - I just don't want to use one. It is not a question of whether or not I am capable of building one; in my day to day work I reassemble small pieces of fractured bone and fix them with screws and plates, and reconstruct soft tissues for cosmetic effect. I also make bamboo rods in my spare time. There is no inherent difficulty in building a binder. It is also absolutely true that a "serious" builder would mechanize and automate as much as possible or practical. I couldn't agree more with that. But one of the things that I struggle constantly against is becoming serious. I do this for fun. The speed doesn't matter. It's a pastime - it's meant to "pass time"; that's what the word means. I can get as much steady tension on my cord using my method as any binder, and I have the added advantage of being able to sort of snuggle and squish the strips into their correct section-of-a-hexagon position, while squeezing out any superfluous glue. I have worked out a support system that holds the section straight enough that a couple of moments tweaking after tying it off is all it takes for a straight section. If problems (this is hypothetical, as I haven't had any yet) were to arise during binding, I would know about it straight away, and would be in a position to do something about it quickly and easily. I have just bound three sections today, and I am totally at a loss to know where in my binding process I would "risk losing it all binding by hand". I use Epon, so time, once again, is not a factor. I will admit that if I were using URAC or Resorcinol, I would resurrect the binder because of the time factor. Clean up, by the way, of Epon is so much easier with alcohol than with acetic acid, and doesn't leave you feeling vaguely like a salad! I am quite sure that most of the good rods in the world are made with binders and other tools; ask Terry Ackland. That's fine, no worries there - but it is not the ONLY way to go! (Peter McKean) Very well said. Some rodmakers can be compared to power boaters who want to get to the final destination as quickly as possible; others like thee and me and quite happy being sailors who enjoy the trip. However, I use both types of binders -- Garrison and 4-string -- but that's only because I love to build gadgets as well as rods. (Ron Grantham) I do use a binder for glued up blanks it is a Garrison style. On some rods I make they have large diameter butt sections for instance some of the coarse rods. These do not turn very well in the supports on my binder. These sections I bind by hand I use an old sea fishing Penn Delmar multiplier reel this is clamped to the bench with the binding twine wound on the spool. I set the drag on the reel to the tension I want. It is then a simple matter to bind the rod keeping the tension the same. You can hear the click on the drag so long as it keeps clicking as you bind it must keep the same tension. Machine binding is better. It does not make your hands ache. One day I will make a binder for large sections. (Barry Grantham) I made a small inexpensive jig out of scrap wood and a sewing machine tensioner. (Anglers Workshop has these) I wrap with simple cotton sewing type thread, to hold the rod while I hand wrap. It is based on a thread wrapper. It is 2 vertical V's- there is cloth in the V's which gets some glue but I clean it and it is very smooth still after 30 or so rods. See it it here. Judging from others I spend a lot less time straightening and I never had to take a twist out. I have never had a delaminate, either. I have helped a guy with his Garrison binder and could not see a difference in the outcome. I don't get glue lines etc. (Rich McGaughey) I hand-bind with the two-bobbin method with Epon and allow for a .005, 004, and 003 glue buildup on the butt, middle and tip. This is a very tight binding scheme. Geometry doesn't seem to matter. (Bill Fink)
I would look at your tensioner. It should be made from really hard, smooth stuff. Mine came from Dale Clemens and are chrome plated. Hardened steel is OK too. Softer material will soon create friction and heat which will break the thread. Any kind of burr is also the kiss of death. If your tensioner is grooved from wear, you can be sure it won't work. One solution might be to build a spring drag onto the thread spool, and skip the tensioner. (Tom Smithwick) I've been using "Coats hand quilting thread extra strong dual duty plus" Glace finish cotton polyester.( I think that means it is cotton covered polyester). It can be purchased at the local sewing center shop and comes in spools 750 yards. No problems with breaking in my 4 string binder and no rod marks after the string is removed. (Ray Gould) Yes, I bind with nylon. I got a one LB spool from Golden Witch, but found another at Boeing surplus that's bonded. That stuff is really nice because it doesn't unravel when you cut it. However, I don't just use it for glue up. I use it for heat treating too. Because of the stretch, it retains tension when the cane shrinks from moisture loss. This keeps the nodes from raising back up during heat treating. (Robert Kope) Gee, I thought I was the only one that used nylon. (Tony Spezio) I also use nylon for a binding thread(glue up and heat treating). It works great. I get it from my dad who has several hundred spools of it on industrial sized spools. If anyone needs any of it at a great price(wholesale surplus from my dad) just let me know. I keep about 10 of the huge spools in my shop all the time. (Randall Gregory) Coats & Clark Button, Carpet and Crafts thread, Glace cotton covered polyester. Get it at either Mart, or any fabric and sewing shop, costs around a buck a spool, holds up just fine to heat treating, strong enough to be able to pull it off blanks glued with Epon or URAC. (John Channer) After I posted I looked up BINDING THREAD in the archives and found an earlier post you made. A trip to the craft store, and I had two great tips an hour later. (Bob Maulucci) I use cotton for heat treating because I'm afraid the synthetic spool I have might melt at the high temp. But I use the synthetic for glue-up because it is really strong. Also use the same synthetic for a drive belt on a double drive pulley. (Don Greife) What size thread are you using, the 16/4 or the 12/4? It could also be the sharper corners of the quad sections causing cuts in the thread. If it's just for glue up, you could always use a poly thread. Or, just stop using those 18 LB weights on your binder. (Mark Wendt) It is the 12/4. It may very well be those quad corners, but I suspect that it is also a burr on the tensioner or somewhere. I know that I am using a light tension on the drive belt and the thread. Either way, I am going to use the Coats and Clark poly/cotton Button Thread for gluing and the cotton for binding for heat treating. Is 18 LB. too much weight?!?!?! (Bob Maulucci) You might also consider polishing the discs in your tensioner too. If there is a burr or groove, using .5 micron polishing paper might take the burr or groove out if it isn't too big. (Mark Wendt) I've been using the cheap cotton kite string from Ace H/W I know it's probably thicker than what most use, but it hasn't broken yet. I tend to bind very tight on the heat treating to hopefully help keep the sections straight. (Pete Van Schaack) Does anyone have a measurement on the tension on their binding thread? Is it 1 pound, 2 pounds, ??? Or do you just adjust until it feels right? (Frank Stetzer, Hexrod, Taper Archive, Rodmakers Archive) I do 1 LB for tips and 1.5 for butts. I find this to be plenty. I suspect a little lighter would be okay but have not tried it. (Timothy Troester) I hang my 1# hammer from the string and tighten things down until it doesn't pull string off the spool. Never weighed the hammer but suspect 1.5# is close. I use the same weight for both tips and butts. (Brian Creek) I use about 1/2 on tips. But then my binder lays thread at about 3/16” apart, which is, I think, a little closer than most binders? (Terry Kirkpatrick) One pound tension on each of the four (4) strings on the rod binder as measured by pulling each with a spring scale seems to provide an excellent starting point. The final step is to tie the strings together and run a test piece thru the binder making final minor adjustments on the friction devices on the strings so that the test piece does not "roll" over (rotate) in one direction or another as it is fed thru the binder. (Ray Gould) I use a gear motor, slip clutch & spool to keep tension on the binding cord. I set the slip clutch for a two pound pull. I use this for both tips and butts. (Ron Larsen) I use a four string binder (I submitted the plans in one of the early Planing Forms and they also appear in the Best of the Planing Form). The machine is an easier to use version of the Milward machine, but I essentially copied ideas from Dawn Holbrook and Tony Maslan and Tim Bedford (he owned the Dickerson stuff). I use carpet thread and used to use a little fish scale to kind-of-sort of get tension at around 1.75 pounds. But after I discovered that I didn't even get a twist if one of the strings broke, I learned that even tension is not essential. So, now I just make sure the four strings sort of feel the same, between 1.5 and 2 pounds. (Chris Lucker) I use a Garrison style binder and use whatever weight (3/4 to 1 LB) I use for the drive belt, to adjust the binding tension. (David Van Burgel)
Someone, I forgot who, gave a demonstration at Grayrock 2 years ago. He was using "O" rings for binding. My apologies for a sieve of a memory. (Rich Jezioro) The O-Ring man is Ted Barnhart of Maryland. He's a great cane rod innovator, but sadly, is not on our list. He goes to China and picks out his own super culms. He also invented the Universal Ferrule made of heat-shrink and graphite cloth that is assembled on the blank and works for any geometry. I have a quad that he ferruled and it works great. He writes for TPF. Quite a guy. (Bill Fink) I would think it would be impossible to maintain even tension with an elastic material. My guess is you would end up with twists and kinks. (Tom Smithwick) For anyone out there who has a healthcare connection, if you can get urethral catheters, which are finer-diameter rubber tubing and slice them, they make great small-diameter bands, which are great for holding guide feet in place. I don't know that they'd work well for binding, though, since it's tough to get tension on them. I think that would be the problem with any rubber band, and why thread binding works better. (Greg Kuntz) I don't know, but thread is cheap and works just fine. I try not to reinvent the wheel if I can avoid it. (Hal Manas)
Isn't that the sort of thing that came on a Herter's binder (Crompton) back in the 50s? Albeit, rubber rather than urethane. (Chris Lucker) I don't know what was on Herter’s, one of the guys at Corbett lake a few years ago turned me on to this stuff and it works like charm. (Patrick Coffey) Fenner-Manheim belting comes in different hardnesses, or durometers. (As well as diameters, and solid or hollow) You want the softer stuff. Clear-Go or Orange-Go are the same, but the orange is easier to see when coated in glue. Up until recently it's all I've ever used, and Patrick is right, its great! I use URAC and keep a pail of water under the binder to drop dirty belts in and to keep a sponge in to wipe off the pulleys between sections. One belt per section works well for me. (Brian Creek)
I used Titebond II on my first (only) rod. I left it to dry for a few days and the cord came off very easily. Cleanup was easy (although I did not do a great job) using small scrapers I bought from Lee Valley Tools, followed by 400 grit paper. I bound by hand. (Greg Dawson) Again with the glue! I have been told that it is a good thing to experiment with adhesives that we use for rod construction. Without experimentation we wouldn't know what we know. Or something like that! It drives me nuts that someone, anyone would not use a tried and true adhesive on their first few rods. Scarf joints blowing up with Titebond glue. Your work? Your design? Scarf placement? OR YOUR CHOICE OF ADHESIVES? Well? Shouldn't you have a "control" when you experiment? Why not 2 butt sections, one with Titebond and one with URAC? The list members go out of their way worrying about mold, mildew, bad cork, strippers, snake guides and ferrules and then use an adhesive that, well Titebond III specs say it should not be used on load bearing surfaces. Why spend all that time ("after a year I finished my first rod") to have it blow up in your hand after a 5 minute lawn casting session? It's not as though URAC or resorcinol is expensive. And it is available online! GRITS. (Chris Raine) I wouldn't feel good about applying significant force after only one hour using Titebond, or any glue other than 5 minute epoxy ;-) Anyone more experienced have thoughts on practical handle time for TB??? (or how to read a manufacturer's info regarding cure/dry time in relation to this kind of force? [one that most of us are tempted to do to aid in clean up]) I'm of the school that the clamp time listed has a certain margin of error, and I'll err on the wide north side of that clamp time AND whatever margin of error I feel good with, rather than risk having to boil a blank apart or toss it. (Joe West) I would NOT put any chemicals on/in bamboo prior to glue up. If you don't put oil on your forms and plane, there shouldn't be any residue on the strips. We are planing down to fresh material. (Chris Raine) I have yet to use Titebond III but I have used Titebond extend on all my rods. The routine that I use is to run it through the binder twice on opposite directions and get the sections as straight as I can before the glue sets. After this I wipe them down with damp (not wet) paper towels to remove the excess glue. I do not remove the string and rebind. I hang the sections to dry for at least 24 hours and then proceed. I would like to know how you make out with Titebond III. (Bill Bixler) Thanks for all the comments. I'll just wipe 'em down and deal with the binding cord later. I didn't realize I was out on a limb with Titebond III. I thought it was just a reformulated version of Titebond II Extend at a higher price. I'll post a note on the list if it falls apart. (David Bolin) Here are my steps, Your milage may vary. I have a 1 ft x 4 1/2 ft table that I put next to the binder. I cover it with wax paper or news paper and use masking tape to hole it in place. Then I make sure there's no dust or other junk between the bamboo pieces. I apply glue (a LOT OF GLUE) to the section then bind. Next I put fresh newspaper over the existing cover and roll the section to get a basic flat roll. This takes the majority of the excess glue off the rod and thread. (the first time I did this, I only wanted a clean work area. I didn't think about the side benefit of cleaning most of the glue off the work.) I then do what ever I need to do to get the strip straight. Tie small loops at both ends and hang to dry. Anyone who doesn't flatten on news paper should give it a try. At least for the first go around. You'll be dealing with a lot less glue. (Terry Kirkpatrick) I recently finished gluing a blank with Titebond III (Sorry Chris, the URAC hasn't been confirmed yet) and here are my experiences: The 10 minutes working time is not accurate. Really 7 minutes is more like it, so bind and straighten quickly! Once the blank was bound and more-or-less straight, I wiped off the excess glue with a damp rag, and hung the bound sections to dry. After 12 hours I removed the string. I was using hand-quilting thread and it came off very easily, so I wouldn't worry about unbinding/rebinding. I also did the splices on the nodeless rod with Titebond III, and found that I could comfortably unclamp the chopsticks after an hour or so, though the bottle says 'clamp for 30 minutes'. One thing to note is when I removed the string from the blank (12 hours after glue up) the flat measurements at the ferrule stations were about .006 ± larger than what I had miced out of the planing forms. This dropped down to .002 after 4 days of curing, which leads me to believe it takes a while for the glue to really cure. I removed the little remaining glue by carefully sanding with 360 grit sandpaper, and everything looks fine. It didn't even break when I test cast it! ;) (Chris Raine)
Try putting the strip into your form with the enamel side up. Iron with a hot, flat iron. It will take most of the twist out of the individual strips. (Jerry Drake) Tell us a little more about how you "test-bound" the section, please. Did you wrap with only one string? If so, binding in one direction only might be the culprit. (Harry Boyd) I’ve got a four string binder on which I set the tension fairly low so as not to risk breaking the fine tip on this rod, though the opposing pulls should cancel out the forces. There is sufficient force to bring the sections tight together but it seems that it is fairly easy to flex the tip into any curved shape I desire. There just doesn’t seem to be enough string tension to hold the strips after applying a reverse twist. (Al Baldauski) I use a four string binder too, and have added a pulling string to move the blank thru as I bind. I've found that by pulling from the end, the string doesn't hold the blank rigid, thus letting it spin if the binding string moves it, resulting in no twist. I just did a 7 1/2' 2 piece and both sections [48"] came out straight and no twist. I've found that the twisting that does occur with this method happens mostly at the node area. (Chad Wigham) You may well be correct that there isn't enough tension to hold things straight and twist free. Remember that the glue adds some "tack" which could help hold the strips. And as the glue wets the string, it adds to the grip the string has on the strips. (Harry Boyd) If the strips are just taped, is the twist there? (Pete Van Schaack) I didn’t try taping so I don’t know. I assume there would still be a twist after taping since it seems to be so persistent when bound. (Al Baldauski) I have had similar problems in the past. I have found that when you remove the enamel, you seem to relieve the stresses that keep the strips straight. In most cases the long curve or sweeps seem to cancel themselves out when the rod is glued. (Mark Babiy) I did scrape the enamel but just BEFORE final planing. I guess this could have introduced some twist that wasn’t removed in the final planing step yet should cancel out when bound up. BUT it doesn’t and I’m concerned that it’s an awful lot of twist to try to undo after glue up. (Al Baldauski) I can understand your desire to straighten it out before glue up but are you straightening it now so that it can be twisted again when glued up? I don't think I would worry with it until after you glue it up. If it remains twisted, straighten it then. (Tim Wilhelm) My first rod was a PHY Midge. I worried and thought (probably too much) over every single step in building that rod. After I had finished the tip strips, I bound them up by hand to check the fit. The fit was OK, but there was a slight twist to the section. I tried twisting in the opposite direction to see if it could be corrected and it would slip right back to the original twist. I believe I called everyone that I knew at that time. Harry Boyd, Dr. Shaffer, Bob Nunley and a few others. If I remember correctly, they all tried to instruct me to go ahead and glue the section up. Convinced that I had a major catastrophe on my hands, I brought the unglued section to SRG that year to show everyone in person the problem that I was trying to explain to them over the phone. Tim Wilhelm looked at the rod section and (I believe I have this straight Tim) said, "Just glue the damned thing up!!!!!". Well, when I got back from SRG I did just that and the section is as straight as can be (at least for me). It did require some straightening while the epoxy was drying. I never did quite figure out just exactly what was going on. Maybe the epoxy (after drying a little) held the strips in place during the straightening process. The current rod I am building showed the same effect after hand binding the strips to check the fit. After gluing, the sections are as straight as can be. (Dave Alexander) Twist Update: After unwrapping my strips there, indeed, was a twist in every strip. I rebound with more tension to no avail. So I took Jerry’s advice and ironed each strip in my form setting the Teflon-faced iron on HIGH and moving it along the strip at ½ inch per second (about). The strips came out with much less sweep and almost no twist! Once again I rebound the strips and using all the techniques mentioned to achieve straightness I wound up with an assembly that was damn near straight and what little twist there was could be untwisted. NOW I’m comfortable to “just go ahead and glue ’em up!” (Al Baldauski) About a week ago Harry, as well as others, responded to my dilemma over twisted strips. You said, “Go ahead and glu’em up. Worry about the twists and bends later”. Well, someone else suggested ironing the strips in my planing form which I did. The strips came out almost dead straight after ironing so I was more comfortable in going ahead to glue-up. Lo and Behold, after glue up my twists were back! I have read Garrison and Cattanach (sorry, not Boyd yet) but can’t find any descriptions on removing twists. Bends yes, twists no. In principle, heating and counter-twisting should work like heating and counter-bending. I’m just apprehensive over the thought of delaminating the fine (0.065) tips. The rods I’m working on are Numbers 2, 3 and 4. You might ask, “What did you do on your first rod?” I didn’t straighten it! I had a slight sweep in my tip section that I didn’t notice with the rather heavy binding string still on. Not noticing it, I went right to heat setting my epoxy and then found the sweep when I cleaned up the sections. No attempts to straighten a heat-cured test section were successful so I live with the sweep. As they say, “The fish won’t notice” Well two of these rods are destined to be Christmas gifts so I want them to “Be the best they can be”. Could you please advise me on your techniques for twist straightening or point me toward some published info? Any help will be much appreciated. (Al Baldauski) I've written about this in some detail in my globalflyfisher articles so rather than typing it all out again here's an excerpt from my article: Despite our best efforts to prevent twists and bends chances are good we will still have some small problems. Now is the time to eliminate those trouble spots. First we will remedy any twists. Begin with one of your tip sections on your flat surface. Gently press a fingertip down on each end. Remove one fingertip and observe the rod section as you do. If the rod section rotates even slightly, there is a twist. Moving our hands closer together and farther apart, up and down the section, will isolate the twist. We may well find more than one twist per section, and sometimes even in opposite directions. Work only on one twist at a time. I suspect you will find that the problems are near nodes. Mark the direction to “un-twist” in pencil on a rod flat. To eliminate the twist we will slowly heat the rod section to the point where it is pliable, and twist in the opposite direction, holding the bend we induced until the rod section has cooled. Do not wear gloves for this operation. Fingertips are our best guide to when the section is warm enough to be pliable. If the section ever gets too hot to hold with bare hands there is real danger of damaging the rod. I heat the section over a heat gun on its lowest setting. The small end of tips take only five to ten seconds to get warm enough to bend when held about an inch above the nozzle of my Wagner heat gun. Again, our fingertips are our guide. Warm only a section of the bamboo the same width as the heat gun nozzle, constantly moving it away and feeling the section like a mother checks her child’s forehead for fever. Warm the section till it is almost as hot as can be stood without being uncomfortable. When it is warm to the touch, but not so warm it burns your fingers, immediately twist and hold the section into an inverse twist, keeping the section as straight as possible. Hold things in that position for a minute or so, then check the progress on a flat surface. Taking things slowly here works much more effectively than trying to go too fast. Here I might add that lately I've been actually laying the heated rod section on a flat surface before imparting the reverse twist. Doing so helps prevent introducing bends in the portion I've just heated. Hold one end flat against the bench or other flat surface, then roll a reverse twist in and hold for 30-45 seconds. Larger rod sections must be heated more slowly. Again, use the heat gun on its lowest setting but hold the section several inches above the heat source. Again, we use our fingers as our guide. Warm the section till it is almost as hot as can be stood without being uncomfortable. Twist and hold and inverse twist into the section. Remove all the twists before beginning work on any bends or kinks. Bends and kinks are removed in a similar manner to twists. Start at the tip and locate the bends by slowly rolling the section on a flat surface while watching to see if the tip rises above the surface. Isolate the bend by pressing down on one flat at a time while moving your fingers up and down the rod section. Heat slowly, bend in the opposite direction, and hold that bend till the rod section is cool. Heat even more slowly as you progress to larger sections of the rod. How straight is straight? Only you can answer that question. If I can find any bend or twist at all I keep working. Physics majors will tell us there is really no such thing as a straight line, but I want my rod sections as straight as I can possibly get them. The process of removing twists and bends is not as tricky or as difficult as I make it sound. Be careful, work slowly, and take frequent breaks and you will produce sections which make you proud. (Harry Boyd)
I plan to use Titebond II for glue and know it has a short working time, so I want to use continuous & reusable belts and was wondering if anyone had any good suggestions as to a good source and good material to use. It seems like the belts are the weak link in this (at least my) machine and I should be able to upgrade it to a much more dependable rig. (Dick Steinbach) JD Wagner has 1200 yd spools of 20 LB Dacron for $60. Not quite as good as 500 for $15 but hardly exorbitant. Like Larry I use the continuous belt for wrapping to heat treat and then the Dacron when I'm gluing. Very much easier to clean a blank that hasn't been driven by an already slimy or sticky (depending on glue) belt. (Henry Mitchell) I have used several different types of material for the belts. I had a belt made of some material one time and it had to be replaced. Not having anything handy but some Mason line, I used that. It worked the best for me. I have my binder tweaked well enough that I don't even splice the belt anymore, I just tie a square knot and it goes right through without a hitch. That works for me on the Garrison. I even run the MD fixtures with six strips through the binder. If you have not tried Mason (chalk) line, give it a shot, it might work for you too. (Tony Spezio) I used many varieties of belts in the past few years, but the one that I stuck with is made with a braided nylon line used for a running line (Cortland). It's a tube type and can be splice real easy by using the method we use to make a loop attachment on fly lines. It can be washed and reused many times. It is a bit slippery though, so I add a rubber band in the groove of the pulley to make it stick. (Michel Lajoie) I use 30# Dacron backing for my belts. I work in a fly shop and just save some when we change backing on a customers reel. The splice is made by pulling the ends inside each other. This is a little hard to explain. There is a picture in one of the "Best of the Planing Form." I don't remember if it is volume 1 or volume 2. Planer board cord also works very well as does braided 50# nylon. (Jerry Drake) I've switched to a continuous belt system ALA Digger DeGere’s set up and love it. I use Kevlar thread from The Thread Exchange, size 138 soft in natural color. I think a 3 oz spool cost about $15 and is hundreds of yards. I run the Kevlar thread through several sewing machine tensioners to provide tension. No more splices or knots. No more cleaning the belt after using. (Winston Binney) Can you tell me where to find a description and/or diagram of Digger Degere's system that you mention? Also, thanks for the link to find the Kevlar. (Jim Rowley) I do have to chime in here, although I don't have drawings. I have my Garrison binder running with a continuous belt for heat treating, and a disposable belt for binding, ALA the DeGere (or more recently, the Wagner) system. I spent $15 for 500 yards of 20# Dacron. No splices to fail, no slipping, no rubber band on the pulley, no knot, no belt to clean or store. The pulley will store a sufficient amount to bind the entire rod, so I don't have to restring between sections. I spool it off the pulley directly into the trash can, which I find to be the ideal place for a glue soaked piece of string. Life is good. Kevlar would work, but I detest the stuff, and having an extra 500 yard spool of backing lying about has come in handy a couple of times. (Larry Blan) Why two different belts for wrapping for heat treating and gluing?? (Roland Cote) The continuous loop is so that you don't waste the Dacron binding to heat treat. The non-continuous (you wind it onto the drive spool and pull more from the fresh spool) when you're binding with glue so that the blank doesn't end up covered in glue from the drive belt. Sorry, I just saw that you'd asked Larry. Oh well, that's my reason anyway. (Henry Mitchell) I just use the loooooooong belt. I don't use a continuous belt at all. It's not wasted when you bind for heat treating; you just wind it back onto the feed spool as needed, and when you're done, then replace it after you glue up. (Robert Kope) It's in one of the "Best of the Planing Form" volumes, I don't remember which. (Neil Savage) On my binder I use mason line with a supply spool. Just bind & rewind, glue up and throw the line away. No mess, no fuss. (Don Schneider) For what it's worth, I'm using size 8 glazed cotton 7 ply thread on a non-continuous "Bellinger style" binder. It works fine with Titebond II and III. If you're ever in Judsonia, Arkansas, the guy at the flea market gets about $3 for a 1 pound spool. (David Bolin)
If not I'll just use the thread in a vise method and bind by hand. The only thing is will this method be tight enough? (Dennis VanHoose) Binding by hand is entirely feasible and gives perfectly good results. It's just a little tiring on the hands! (Gary Marshall) I will second that........... I have a Garrison binder but rarely use it.I only make two to three rods a year and I find hand binding the best method for me. I have made one piece 6' rods and still bound th | ||||
