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I remember finishing some of my early rods by simply masking off the ferrules and then taping a hanging loop to the handle of the butt section and tying a loop to the tip ring/guide of the top. I then POURED the varnish from a jug down each rod section and collected the excess varnish in a glass jar (for recycling). Make sure the floor area is well covered for the inevitable mishap, I used old newspapers. Then promptly hang each section in your drying cabinet (which should be very close to where you are working to minimize atmospheric/airborne contaminants (IE: bits)!). After blowing off any excess varnish that may/will collect in the guides/rings. Have no doubts that this method, despite its crudeness, produces a very acceptable finish and one that after three coats with a little rubbing down in between is very, very acceptable to all but the most discerning eye. Go on, give it a try, I can almost guarantee you will not be at all disappointed with the end result. Make sure the wife and kids, dogs and cats are aware of what you are doing and make sure they keep well away from your work area during the pouring. (Paul Blakley)
I started off with tung oil, three applications. Let dry for a week using the hair dryer trick mentioned a little while ago on this list. When no more oil weeps out, apply a 50/50 thinner and polyurethane varnish mix. Let dry overnight. Apply three coats of straight polyurethane. Let dry thoroughly, at least a week. Sand lightly with 400 wet dry sandpaper and water. Then sand thoroughly with 600 wet dry sandpaper and water. Then buff completely with Turtle Wax Polishing Compound. The sanding and polishing removes that slight dulling film that forms on the surface of dry polyurethane. Be sure to get Polishing Compound, not Rubbing Compound. Rubbing compound is much more abrasive. Any automotive store will have Polishing Compound. Also, don't get too vigorous with the sandpaper. You don't want to sand through down into the (wood in my case) bamboo below. All you want to do is take off the surface layer. The finish on my dresser is very impressive. I think it will be equally impressive on a rod. (Darryl Hayashida)
As far as value goes, I know rod won't be worth a whole lot, but was wondering if there would be performance degradation using a non-impregnated butt? (Paul Hamm) There are those that would consider a non-impregnated butt section a performance improvement. :-) (Timothy Troester)
It can be done, but I wouldn't recommend it. Just finish this one out as it is, and make the next one dark, IMO. Should you choose to stain it, be aware that oil based stains are not the best choice. They don't penetrate very well. Seems like someone mentioned using aniline dyes with good results, but I have no experience with that. Ammonia toning can produce a deep walnut color, but will not have the mottled look of flaming. Of course, neither will a stain....(Harry Boyd) I've tried ordinary wood stains & aniline wood dyes, but I've had better success using Pantone (Tria) markers. You will need a color much darker than you think at first, because bamboo doesn't really want to absorb the ink. After coloring the blank, let it dry then "go at it" with alcohol on a rag to even up the color. Most of the color will come off on the rag. You then repeat the whole process until its dark enough. There really isn't too much to go wrong; the color moves fairly well with the rag. Do this late in the process, just before you wrap the guides and/or varnish, because any final sanding or steelwooling will remove more stain and leave lighter spots. Once you've found a color you like, you can buy the Pantone inks in 4 oz bottles, if you look on the web. Maybe that would be useful once you have a color you like. (Frank Stetzer, Hexrod, Taper Archive, Rodmakers Archive) How did Wayne Cattanach go about purpling the rod for his daughter? Was it the Pantone marker route or did he do something else? (Gerald Buckley) He used the Pantone marker. He thought about using potassium permanganate but settled on the marker. I tried the potassium permanganate. Produces a dirty brown. Looked like mud. The best way I've found is using aniline dye. The kind that Woodcraft sells that can be made up using alcohol. Get a section on PVC pipe long enough for the strips and put the strips in and add the alcohol/dye mixture and let sit overnight or make a chamber using galvanized pipe and put about 100 psi and dye it in about 5 minutes. This dyes it all the way through. No backing out and sanding it off. (Onis Cogburn) The only sure way of staining Bamboo I know of is with Potassium of Permanganate Solution ! Some people say it stains with a purple tinge......not quite true......the color is a brown tone effect. You can get potassium permanganate from any Chemists (Pharmacy) and it is generally used for the treatment of foot disorders (as in Chiropody). It is also extremely cheap........the down side is it will stain your hands like you are a 100 a day smoker so take care with the stuff. (Paul Blakley) You might mention that it is not advisable to use potassium permanganate mixed with glycerin, although I'm sure the terrorist's handbook approves of it. (Reed Curry) Has anyone tried Potassium Dichromate? We used to use this on mahogany, but it works on many woods. It interacts with the tannic acid in the wood and thus creates a permanent chemical change, not just a covering with pigment, like so many stains. We used to make a saturated solution, then use half to get 50%, 25%, 12.5%, etc. (Reed Curry) Potassium dichromate is photosensitive. It hardens organic material it is mixed with on exposure to UV light. It creates a yellowish stain, which can be removed chemically. It's the active chemical used to make gum prints around the turn of the century. Mixed with gum arabic, and pigment, it hardens any gum exposed to UV. You can wash away the unhardened gum, leaving the pigmented image behind. I've heard it's used by gun makers to stain maple gunstocks to achieve that rich red/brown, and I've considered using it on reel seat fillers. I have no idea what effect it would have on cane, but if exposed to UV, it might toughen up the outer layers. I still have some ammonium dichromate (its more reactive cousin) left over from my artsy photo days. Maybe an experiment is in order. (Bill Hoy) You may want to find a quart of Watco Danish Oil. Danish Oil is similar to tung oil, but it's not nearly as oily. The phenolic resins get into (rather than on) the fiber and harden, so it may change the action of the rod a little, but I doubt it. I have used it to seal blanks before I lettered anything or started wrapping. I have planned to use five or six coats as a final finish, but haven't got around to that yet (got to use up this $60 a gal. varnish first). I have used the Danish Oil on furniture that I made, and it gives a beautiful hand rubbed finish. And, I do mean hand rubbed, palm down, and rub 'til it gets too hot. You can get the Watco Danish Oil in clear, teak or walnut. You can control the tone of walnut by the length of time you leave it on before wiping it off, and by the number of coats. If you have some scrap strips or blank, you may want to test it. When I used it to seal rods, I had no problem when the rod was varnished. I can't say that this would be the case if many coats were applied before varnishing. The varnish I use is Behlens (Masters) Water White Restoration Varnish. One of my next projects (when the spirit moves me) is to soak my strips in Danish Oil. Since it gets into rather than on to the fibers, and hardens, this will be a poor mans attempt at impregnation. Wes Jordan did it with phenolic resins and pressure. I would stick to heat treating to drive out any lingering moisture. After all, I'm not Wes Jordan. (Bob Marbert) I may very well be wrong here, but it seems to me that for practical purposes one butane flame is about as hot as another butane flame; bigger burners produce more heat in total than small burners, but at the point of maximum temperature in a butane flame, the temperature will be about the same in all of them. Even if you flame bamboo with a small burner, as long as you pay attention to detail and move it about sufficiently, taking care not to dwell on any one spot past the time needed to achieve the color you want, you should be fine. It will take you a bit more time with a small burner, and you will need to be careful of local overheating; but remember, this stuff doesn't go black in a second or two, so you won't stuff up a culm as fast as you think! Personally, I think that taking the staining option is in the same league as rubber grips and shrink-wrap guide binding. Just take the torch and get into it. When you have done your first one, you will wonder what you were worried about. If you are determined to have it black you may be disappointed first time around, but you will know more about flaming bamboo than you will know after staining one, and somewhere down the line you will get your black (-ish) one. (Peter McKean)
You can sand them out of the finish and then polish the rod. You can touch them to the flame of an alcohol lamp but will still have to sand or polish. how did you varnish the rod? (Timothy Troester)
So, how many coats of finish do your rods get? (Harry Boyd) I dip four on both butts and tips. I also sand (1500, then 2000 grit) a lot of varnish off, but from the looks of the first sanding I don't ever completely remove the layer. That leads me to believe that I'm only thinning the varnish (physically), while breaking the gloss for the next coat. I could be wrong here but I think all four coats stay on the rod to some degree. After the last coat and more sanding I use 3M's Perfect It II to bring up a gloss that you can't get by just dipping. Hope this helps. (Dennis Haftel) PS: I've used this method with both Poly and MOW. Depends on the viscosity of the varnish. Mine is leaving about .0015" film per dip. I dip blanks twice (one right after the other), light sand with 800 or 1000 grit. Using a magnifier light (I don't want to knock off the finish off of the corners). Wrap guides, finish wraps, sand with 1200 grit between coats. Vacuum, wash with mineral spirits, dip one final time to blend everything together. If it comes out baby butt smooth, I leave it alone, if not, sand with 1000 grit and dip one more time. (David Dziadosz) 2, sanded lightly in between, just enough to flatten the bumps. I don't see any point in putting something on, then sanding it all off. Of course, that is after 3 -4 coats on the wraps. (John Channer) What a coincidence. I was going to post the "How many coats" question this morning but thought I should check in some of the rodmaking books first. I checked Maurer, Howell's and Gould and it seems that they all agree on three dip coats. I'm currently dipping two rods now and two more in the next two weeks. I've settled one dip coat to as a filler (which I sand off), 4-5 thinned coats on the wraps and then three dip coats, sanding/steel wool between coats. I've changed from vanishing the blank first then wrapping to wrapping first, varnishing wraps and then dipping wrapped rod. I've found that burnishing wraps is easier on a unvarnished 3-4 coats. First coat is a very thin coat (tung oil varnish) of sealer applied with my fingers and rubbed very thin on the blank. Once dry it is rubbed out but not removed with #0000 steel wool. Guides are then wrapped and coated, followed by 2-3 coated of either Tung Oil varnish or poly (Pratt & Lambert #61 or P&L Varmor) depending if it is a new rod or restoration. Between coats, I rub out each coat with #0000 steel wool. Prior to the last coat I sand lightly with #800-1000 paper. (Marty DeSapio) One coat is sufficient. The more varnish You apply, the slower the rod because of the weight of the varnish. (Carsten Jorgensen) Hooray Carsten!!!. I was just too chicken to say it myself. Like John Channer, I see no reason to put it on and sand it off. (Ralph Moon) Must admit I saw off half of the tube on the tiptop, I shorten the feet of the snakes, just to keep the weight down. (shorter feet, less thread and varnish) (Carsten Jorgensen) In theory, I agree with you. But why would the varnish manufacturers recommend 5-8 coats??? Isn't it possible that they know their own product better than we do? Again, I know a fly rod isn't subject to either the exposure or the strain that a ship's mast is, but there must be more to it. (Harry Boyd) Harry, let me answer Your remarks one at a time: "In theory, I agree with you.": Milward’s makes the, non-confirmed, statement, that half of the power applied to the rod goes to move the rod itself, the other half moves the fly line. Why should I waste even more power to move surplus weight of the rod? More power needed means less refined control achieved. I prefer smooth casting as opposed to brute power. "But why would the varnish manufacturers recommend 5-8 coats?" The short and blunt version of my answer is: They want to sell the stuff "Isn't it possible that they know their own product better than we do? " Absolutely yes. But considering all the junk sold in this world I would not put my trust in salespersons alone “Again, I know a fly rod isn't subject to either the exposure or the strain that a ship's mast is, but there must be more to it." Honestly I don't think so. Think of the ships mast, being exposed to water, salt, heat and sunshine etc. 24 hours a day, for years, as opposed to a fly rod. We take care of our rods, use them for hours per day, for a limited number of days per year. Most, if not all, rods are never exposed to saltwater. If I knew one of my rods would be exposed to the elements in a way a ships mast is, I would considered putting on more than one layer of varnish. But until then, I’ll stick to one layer. (Carsten Jorgensen) I think you are being a little too blunt here. "But why would the varnish manufacturers recommend 5-8 coats???" The short and blunt version of my answer is: They want to sell the stuff Actually the short answer is yes you do need this number of coats to protect from UV as much as anything else. That includes a rod though it takes longer for the effect to be seen. The UV wont hurt the rod itself but will reduce the life of the varnish which could mean nothing more than the need to refinish the rod prematurely or allow moisture to enter the rod easier than otherwise sooner than it should. UV may not be much of an issue in the very extreme latitudes but it's an issue for the rest of the globe. I know on my boat here in Perth I'm happy if I get 3 months from varnished surfaces during spring and summer no matter what brand I use from Epiphanes down including stuff I've made myself without regard to EPA laws. I'm a bee's dick from painting everything to save the hassle. Varnish is nothing more than paint you can see through but that's why it needs the extra coats because the effects of UV aren't just working on the surface of the varnish as it does on paint (varnish with pigments) but also right through it affecting the entire layer of varnish. "Isn't it possible that they know their own product better than we do? " Absolutely yes. But considering all the junk sold in this world I would not put my trust in salespersons alone "Again, I know a fly rod isn't subject to either the exposure or the strain that a ship's mast is, but there must be more to it." Honestly I don’t think so. Think of the ships mast, being exposed to water, salt, heat and sunshine etc. 24 hours a day, for years, as opposed to a fly rod. We take care of our rods, use them for hours per day, for a limited number of days per year. Most, if not all, rods are never exposed to saltwater. If I knew one of my rods would be exposed to the elements in a way a ships mast is, I would considered putting on more than one layer of varnish. But until then, I’ll stick to one layer. You need to decide if the varnish is just there for looks or is actually doing something for the rod. If it's just for looks who cares if it's protective qualities break down but if it is something of a moisture barrier which is is for short duration dunkings but not long term immersions it may be worth thinking about. The rods I brought with me to Grayling both times I went had only a single coat of varnish because I didn't have time to do more before leaving for the plane. Both these rods needed re coating recently because the varnish was visibly wearing thin simply through use. Not rough use, just walking through bush when I had to, drying the rod off when I needed to etc. I do think varnish protects from submersion moisture entry if not from atmospheric moisture so I personally think a rod needs more than a single coat BUT I will say I'm not 100% happy with my finish compared to what some others can get. Interestingly the rods I've seen that do have superb finishes also have a few coats applied. (Tony Young) On the whole I think we agree: Ships environment is much harder to varnish than is the fly rods. I honestly think one layer is enough, especially, as rodmakers sand of most of the interim layers anyway. (Carsten Jorgensen) But it must depend on the viscosity of the varnish. If you use thinned varnish you aren't leaving very much on the rod so if you sand at all there must not be very much left where you do surely? Jerry Foster correctly asked me if I use a wax on my rods and yes I do so it does a lot to repel water but it wont really protect much I don't think. A hardened coat of varnish is quite a hard layer to help protect in use. Maybe I'm just hard on my gear though. (Tony Young) I thin the varnish with around 30 percent thinner and dip once - no sanding. When lucky I don’t have to do anything more. If I get little specks etc. I try to polish a couple of weeks later with finesse it (a very good product). If everything fail, I sand of the while thing and start again. When finished snakes etc. are put on. I then polish the rod with furniture wax WITHOUT silicone. (Carsten Jorgensen) I would think it should be obvious, they recommend 5-8 coats because that way they sell more varnish! They are also much more used to static applications, rather than use on fly rods which must flex repeatedly. (John Channer) That's not really true in the case of spar varnish though it may be so for polys and other varnish that isn't intended for out door use. Also, remember the varnish instructions aren't intended for rods. Spar varnish is normally intended for masts and spars as well as rails etc. on boats or house exterior doors etc. For the varnish to have at least a slight chance of staying in place it needs a couple of things. It needs a very smooth surface to be applied to because bumps etc. sitting proud of the surface cause a reduction of varnish to be held at a bump. Imagine a cross section of a surface with a bump in it. The varnish will flow down hill from the bump and have a higher buildup on the smooth surface than a rough one. Once the varnish thickness is reduced at the bump it's a point of entry for moisture or lifting of the surrounding area. Secondly it has to have a few coats in order for the UV inhibitors in the varnish to have any effect. Remember it's intended to protect what's under it as much as to remain on the surface. Thirdly varnish wears through friction or the effects of sun light. Also, you need a few coats to allow a little sanding between coats. A rod doesn't normally need sanding between coats provided it's smooth as a baby's bum to begin with but that's a hard thing to achieve in wood work. Try getting away with one coat of varnish on a table top some time. (Tony Young)
Since I'm far too human to wait 5 days between every coat, I think I'll build a drying cabinet this weekend to get a better cure in a day or two. (James Piotrowski) I dip my rods about every 6-12 hours and I have had no problems with orange peel. (Dave Henney)
I know this has been covered before but I think I must be a slow learner. (Jon McAnulty) In the days when I would rebuild a rod whose finish was not dramatically better than anything that could be bought I used to go for one really good final coat. You can, after all, steel wool or wet'n dry it down and shoot again! I'm afraid that the rods that I use myself no longer aspire to such excellence, although on my last visit to a tackle shopI was not impressed at all with the finish on some rods selling for the equivalent of 800 bucks. Hardy, B James, even the simplistic Sharpes, were much better. Years ago, I mean! (Robin Haywood) Admittedly, I am not a perfectionist on this. I just want to try to get better at it. I seem to have plateaued on this aspect of rod building. (Jon McAnulty) Rub the rod down with 0000 steel wool and touch sand the wraps and any large imperfections prior to the last coat. Dampen a paper towel with mineral spirits and use it like a tack rag . Now once dry dip the last coat. After it hardens you can sand out any imperfections and polish with whatever polishing compound you want. If you use a drying cabinet and your varnish is clean you may be satisfied right out of the tube. (Marty DeSapio) If you are going to try polishing the last coat out to a high gloss, I'd strongly urge you to stay away from steel wool. In my experience, even the finest steel wool leaves deep scratches that aren't easy to polish out. Admittedly the scratches are small and fine, but they are deep. Instead, try wet-sanding only the dust specks and other flaws with 2000 g sandpaper. I moisten the sandpaper with linseed oil, and use only a tiny corner of the paper. I find that sanding a dust speck with extremely light pressure works best when I use a circular pattern. I sand till I can no longer see the spec under magnification. After the 2000 grit (dare I use that word?) paper, I change to the light blue finishing paper that Russ Gooding sells. Again, use it moistened with some sort of oil. And again, I concentrate only on the specks and other flaws. The blue paper will bring the sanded areas back to a nice matte finish. When finished sanding, wipe everything clean with a dry paper towel. Finally, bring things back to high gloss with the least abrasive of the 3M polishes. I can never remember if it's the Perfect It or Finesse It. I've tried many things, including Meguires' #9, and the 3M works best for me. In no way do I mean to imply that my finish work is anything special. But with a little time and effort you can return the gloss so close to freshly dipped that you can't find the flaws. One more VERY IMPORTANT point. No dipped finish is going to be ready for polish until the finish is thoroughly cured. With poly wait at least a week. With spar, I try to wait three weeks. I keep the rods at 80 degrees + F till completely tack free. Beyond that, the temp's don't matter. (Harry Boyd) I would shoot for the prefect last coat. If you still have dust, try to sand them out with 2000 grit paper lubricated with olive oil. Then use the Perfect It and Finesse It (Or the Meguires as I use) to polish that back to shiny. Use a bit of elbow grease. Make sure the rod has cured for a few days before you polish it out. How long and how well it will work depends on the varnish you use. Honestly, this works so well that I do not ever lose sleep over a few specks (but I used to!). With prudent sanding and buffing they disappear. (Bob Maulucci) Or, the way to get a glossy, perfect finish on fine furniture is to rub it down with rottenstone. (You can get it from Woodworkers Supply.) I've used it and it does work great (but it is messy). (George Bourke) I used rottenstone on a rod before and really like the nice deep stain finish it gives. I mixed it with Danish Linseed oil to the consistency of slurry, and rubbed it in to the rod with a piece of felt. Gave a nice warm finish. (Mark Wendt) I do much the same thing using pure Tung oil slurried with Tripoli powder. It looks so good that you really wonder whether you need to go any further. You do, of course. (Peter McKean) What's Tripoli powder? Pretty much the same as rottenstone? (Mark Wendt) I believe Tripoli is usually used for a metal polish...I have some in stick form, for buffing wheels, probably held together with wax. The box says "For buffing parts of aluminum, pewter, brass, copper, wood, bone, plastic and painted surfaces. It's the second coarsest in a set of 4. (Neil Savage) The main trick to a good finish is to think CLEAN! Your varnish must be free of specks of crud, your rod musty be absolutely clean, down to the last speck of dust and piece of lint, and you must keep it that way until the varnish is tack free, at least 4 hours, longer is better. The only way I can do this last step is to have my tube in the bottom of the drying cabinet and never let the wet rod be exposed to room air. In spite of all precautions and preparations, there will always be a few bumps, that's the way it goes. As Harry said, sand them out with 2000 with some sort of lubricant, I find water(read also, spit) works just fine, then polish , I like Perfect-It 11 followed by Finesse-It 11. I don't wait as long as Harry recommends, I find that I can sand in 3 days without the varnish balling up under the paper(second worst nightmare, the worst is dropping a freshly varnished rod on the carpet). Flaws can be dealt with, so shoot for perfect, but don't be too bummed if you don't get there. (John Channer) For many rods I tried to get the perfect finish out of the dip tube, and produced some pretty crappy rods as a result. I do not have a dust free dipping tube environment; in fact, mine is not even moth-free. I am now producing a finish on my rods that I think is pretty good, and what I do is this - after the final coat, which I try to make as dust and blemish free as I can, I go through a polishing procedure that involves Perfect It 1, followed by Perfect It 2, Finesse It, and finally Meguires Plastic Polish. Perfect It 1 is quite gritty, and will cut out a lot of the major imperfections, the others progressively improve the finish. I use my Dremel tool with a felt pad using the Perfect It 1, on low speed, to smooth out the varnish on the wraps. You stuff up a few to begin with but pretty soon get the hang of it. The resulting finish is not as glossy/glittery as the raw PU varnish, but has a deep, lustrous sheen that is pretty classy. Should mention that I sand the hell out of the successive varnish coats prior to the application of the final coat with 1500 and 2000 grit wet & dry paper. (Peter McKean) I am in the process of building a dipping apparatus so this thread is very timely. I plan to use clear Plexiglas tubing about 1" diameter with a valve in the bottom so I can control the rate at which the varnish drains. My thought processes suggest that if I drain the varnish and then leave the section in the tube overnight before moving it to a drying chamber then I should get no lint or dust on the finish. My question is will the varnish setup up past the tacky point if it is left hanging in the tube 24 hours or will the fact that it is in a small tightly enclosed chamber slow the drying time considerably? If so would placing a piece of nylon stocking over the top allow it to breathe a littler more? (Larry Puckett) I'd like to ask a question in addition to this one. What do people who use a drain tube setup do about varnish in the guides? In a dip tube setup you just clear the guides but how do you do this if the guides are 2 feet from the access? The original questions are good ones too. (Tony Young) Using a clear tube is one way of being able to stop and wait under guides. Another way is set the drain rate ultra slow - a drip every 2 to 5 seconds, taking hours to drain the tube. I would guess it would be equivalent to withdrawing a rod at 1/4 inch per minute or so. The rate is so slow the varnish drains off the guides and doesn't drip. You do have to check on the drip rate frequently if you do it this way. The lowering of the hydraulic head pressure slows the drip rate as the varnish drains. (Darryl Hayashida) What's the general feeling with respect to wrapping guides before or after varnishing? I know that some folks do wrap and varnish their guides after the rod itself is varnished while others prefer the seamless finish obtained by varnishing after wrapping guides. What are the relative merits of this? (Larry Puckett) What would you suggest I use for the tube? Also, presumably you clean the tube after use or do you put the varnish back in after it's been drained? (Tony Young) Some on the list use clear tubes made to protect fluorescent lights, I found clear PVC pipe at McMaster-Carr, but I started out using regular white PVC pipe from the local hardware store. I don't clean the tube after I use it, the build up inside is slight. If you ever do run into a problem with varnish on the inside of the pipe a couple dollars is all it takes to replace it. I do prop up a little can full of paint thinner under the tube to submerge the valve (valve is open) so it doesn't clog. (Darryl Hayashida) Yes, the small space of the tube will slow the drying, but not so much that it won't tack off, just be patient. I definitely put a filter over both ends, for the drying time; and also for the draining time when room air is going into the top of the tube. I use coffee filter paper held on with a rubber band. (Rick Funcik) I think it depends on the type of varnish you use and the humidity in your area. I have been using the drain the tube technique for years, and I usually don't have a problem with the varnish tacking up to a stage where dust won't stick to it leaving the rod in the tube overnight. One time though, we had very uncharacteristic high humidity in the 70 percent range, and the varnish would not tack up for three days. (Darryl Hayashida) Thanks for all the replies. It looks to be very helpful. I have a pretty good dipping set up, enclosed heated box etc, etc. but was at a lack of where to go and what to do when it still didn't turn out just right. Nice to learn some moves to deal with the reality of varnish finishing. (Jon McAnulty)
I had a similar problem a little more than a year ago and never really resolved the cause. My thoughts were that in my quest for that perfect flat finish, my use of the ever finer sanding had burnished some of the sections of the flats (especially the darker bands of flaming). The other interesting problem was that I didn't get the "pulling away" when I dipped the blank sans guides. The problem occurred after I had wrapped the guides, finished the wraps and dipped the whole finished rod. I thought maybe the rubber O-rings on my rod wrapper may be contaminated. Here's the question -- What is the purpose of the Penetrol ? (David Van Burgel) In the conversations I had with both Bob and the fella behind the paint counter, Penetrol creates a kind of wetting action, similar to the anti-fisheye additive that I used to add to enamel paints that I sprayed. It has a minor action of thinning the finish, but the big factor is it slows the curing time a bit, and the wetting action allows the finish to stay "spread" out. I went through all sorts of gyrations trying to make sure there were no surface contaminants - denatured alcohol rubs, Bob's technique of using Dawn dish washing liquid and a toothbrush, and other degreasing agents that I have left over from my painting days. I was pretty sure that I had a surface that was free of contaminants. In talking with Bob, I think we boiled a lot of it down to the temperature in my shop, over which I couldn't do much right now with the space heater that I have, not being uniformly warm enough. We've had a particularly cold winter here for Maryland, and when I'm not out in the shop, my heater is turned off, so much of the shop was getting pretty well cold soaked. Bob said the Penetrol would help ease the temperature issues, and it worked. His only reservation was that he wasn't familiar with it in a urethane, so we devised the test. Once that worked out, it was then put to the real test - on the rod sections. And, it worked beautifully. According to the Flood web site, Penetrol may raise the VOC of the coating, which may have a lot to do with helping the spreading qualities of the finish. My only worry with the stuff originally, was that they didn't say explicitly, either on the can or on the web site that it was compatible with urethane varnish. And the folks that I'd talked to had only used it with standard spar. I was delighted to find out it worked just fine with the Helmsman. I don't know if the sanding with ever finer grades of paper had much to do with it. I already had two coats of finish on the rod when I was trying to put the final coat. I'd cuffed the first and second coat down with 400 grit, and the second coat went on just fine - no pulling. It was the third coat, applied in colder conditions, where the problems began. Using the Penetrol, in roughly the same conditions, I didn't have the problems show up this time. (Mark Wendt) Another interesting thread in this sometimes frustrating hobby of ours. I have had the opposite situation occur to me that you did David. When I "dripped" my rods sections for the first time I had the pull away effect and I kept dripping until they were coated. I did sand between coats so as to not have too thick a buildup/I too cleaned as Mark did with alcohol mineral spirits etc. When I had it entirely covered I did the wraps, Pearsalls Gossamer, quite thin, and after I had enough buildup on them, I sanded with 2000 grit wet. Throughout the whole process my L N L spar had been treated with Penetrol. It was after the sanding with 2000 grit, that all went well for me and I have my best finished section yet. The other common factor that I had with Mark was temperature it was real cold in my work area and things seemed to work better when I cranked up a space heater. (Bill Bixler) Was your problem on the raw cane? Usually sanding with fine grit causes problems on cane. I never heard of it causing problems when sanding previous coats of varnish. (Jerry Madigan)
Here's the rub -- I can't come up with many ideas to speed up the finishing process. I am completely unwilling to allow the final finish quality to suffer in any way. Here's an outline of what I do after the blank is finished:
Just looking for ideas about what can be done to make the process go a little quicker. I hate sanding varnish. (Harry Boyd) About the only thing I can suggest is to cut down on the time you wait between coats, but for this, you need a varnish that "kicks" a little quicker. I use Mike's Stuff, but only a single application. This coats and seals, and for me, that's my only objective at that point. I use Minwax "Fast Dry" poly for the wraps, allowing the first coat to dry for two days, and then two coats per day thereafter (that is, assuming reasonably controlled humidity). The finish is the same process as you use, except I apply one coat per day, allowing the second coat to dry for two days and then sand before the third coat. The third coat dries for three days before I polish out the finish. For that, I use the Nova system (but only the first two grades, omitting the third). I don't believe one can get a truly nice finish without the time consuming sanding, but I don't think it's necessary to sand before every coat -- only before the final coat., and a little touchup before polishing. So, you can cut your time in half if you're willing to go with the poly. In my experience it is not possible to detect a difference between it and the traditional spar varnish after sanding and polishing to your preferred luster. But, of course, many makers just can't bear the thought of rupturing tradition for the sake of poly. I should add, too, that I only brush my rods, and have never used a dip tank. Perhaps that would make a difference in one's choice of finishes, though I don't quite understand why. Anyhow, Harry, that's about the best I can offer. Basically, I think we're almost "stuck" if we want a really nice looking rod. Meticulous attention to detail just takes time, that's all. (Bill Harms) With the spar I use, three days between coats is about as little as I can get away with. Four is better. My experience with polyurethanes has not been good since Pittsburgh Paints quit making their PPG 77-5. Guess I'll stick with spar since I like the ease of polishing once it fully cures. Your suggestion about using only one coat of Mike's Stuff makes sense. I'll give that a try. Thanks. And remember, I'm in Louisiana where heat and humidity are the name of the game. Yesterday it was 98 degrees with 95% humidity. Completely miserable for man and beast. (Harry Boyd) All I can think of is to impregnate the blank, skip varnishing entirely and just put 3 coats of Varathane on the wraps, but you probably don't want to hear that! (John Channer) For what it's worth, here is how we finished musical instruments in the violin shop I worked at. (a) dry sand with 220 folded 4 thicknesses (works like a plane then, only rides on hi spots) regular paper not the no fill. The no fill causes fish eye's (b) sprayed on Behlens rock hard spar varnish, flexes well, as up right basses flex and vibrate like crazy. dry in a foil lined closet surrounded by florescent UV lights. Dries in one day (c) Dry sand between coats with 220 folded 4 thicknesses. (d) after final coat, sand with 220 folded, then 0000 steel wool with furniture polish and then polish with rotten stone and furniture polish (tre bien brand no silicon) to a mirror finish. Start to finish after the final coat of varnish to comb your hair in mirror finish took about 3 hours for a upright bass. A fly rod takes a lot less time. (Patrick Coffey) I've been waiting to see if anyone came up with a good way to speed up your finishing time. No one has so let me make a suggestion. I gather the drying time for your rods is slow due to high humidity in your area. The overall answer is simple - dry out the air inside your drying cabinet. The details are a bit more complicated. I am assuming you already warm the air inside your drying cabinet and it still takes a long time to dry. Cold air cannot hold as much moisture as warm air. Air that has been cooled, then heated again will be dry. Of course you have to eliminate all sources of moisture, including the surrounding air once it has been cooled. So the question becomes how can this be achieved? One way I can see is put a heated drying cabinet in an air conditioned room. As the cool room air is heated inside the drying cabinet, relative humidity will be a lot lower and your rods will dry faster. Another solution is a dehumidifier, either a whole room dehumidifier or a cabinet dehumidifier. The problem with a dehumidifier is it is expensive. Essentially it is a portable air conditioner which cools the air, condenses the moisture and collects it in a reservoir which you have to empty or drain away. Dehumidifiers, at least the ones that do the best job are expensive - on the order of 400 -500 dollars and up. Perhaps you can find an old air conditioner and use that as a dehumidifier. You can use desiccant inside your drying cabinet, but you would need a lot of desiccant, and you would need to recharge it frequently - possibly several times a day if your humidity is really high. (Darryl Hayashida)
I have just about finished a rod for a friend at work. Her husband enjoys fishing once in a while, so I set up the Hand Mill and ripped through a quick spinning rod. Came out nicely so far, and I have been busting my hump between actual business stuff to finish off this "favor" rod. I bought some quick drying polyurethane and did the wraps in a day. They look good, and personally I don't care if it does not have full UV protection. I did the blank with Mike Brook's "Mike's Stuff" finished off with a bit off his wipe on spar varnish. There were some goobers in the finish, so I want to try to rub them out as opposed to refinishing the rod and running out of time. I used a mix of Mineral Oil and Mineral Spirits and rubbed the blank out with 0000 steel wool, some nasty spots with 400. It looks like a classic rod, semi-gloss and level. It has no obvious transitions from where I hit it with the 400 to remove the defects. All in all, it took about 30 minutes total (not including drying or wraps) to varnish and rub out this blank. Basically, I did nothing as I normally would have. However, I think it looks really nice, and it actually highlights the glossy wraps a bit. My question is... how come everyone likes that glossy look so much? How come no one ever suggests a more subtle finish? Is semi-gloss a viable finish for a retail rod? It sure is easier. I guess another question is whether the classic rods were ever all that glossy to begin with? Inquiring minds want to know. (Bob Maulucci) I have done a couple in a very similar manner. They do look good that way, I agree. Just my opinion, but I think there are a couple reasons for the "glossy look". First, I think there is the shiny new toy appearance that a gloss finish gives a rod. We like shiny cars, shiny stoves, and so on; so why not shiny rods? Second, I think that the subliminal message of a gloss varnish is 1) traditional, and 2) Geez, if it's that shiny, it's really protected from water and the elements, right? I don't want anyone to think I am denigrating gloss finishes by any means. I dip my stuff in a couple different concoctions and like the look. Also, if someone is selling rods, you have to give folks what they want, not what you want. *G* FWIW, I have been fooling around with Mike's Impregnating Solution quite a bit lately. I just did one where that was all I used then buffed it up to a semi-gloss appearance and I think it looks nice that way. It really gave a nice finish. I also think that, as rodmakers, potentially we are our own worst enemies on finishes. As we advance in our finishing techniques, the rods get glossier and more "perfect" in appearance and we, advertently or not; condition the customer to expect that ALL bamboo rods "need" to look like that to be "a good rod". Partially due to that, I think to many, the satin or semi gloss finish, while a sharp look IMO, is going to be a hard sell. The only place I can see that not being an issue is where the impregnation stuff is used and the rod described as such. I think this will work due to the Duracanes, some of the Phillipsons, and such others from the past. I personally really think the glossy rods look sharp, but I also fish a couple "hand-rubbed tung oil finish rods” and like them also. Guess you can have your cake and eat it also. *G* None of the above was meant to anger anyone, by the way. Just my opinions. (Dewey Hildebrand) Let me say that I applaud your sentiment. I have a few impregnated rods that do not have the glossy finish and I fish the daylights out of them. I like the semi-gloss finish. Maybe that's because it's coming from someone who actually fishes with the rods as opposed to collecting them or using them to decorate a wall. It seems to me that there is a major drift among the current crop of rodmakers to outdo each other in making rods pretty for the customers. Looking at Len Codella's web site you'll see rods adorned with any choice of wood reel seats, NS hardware with fancy tooling, agate stripper guides, fancy ferrule plugs, and glossy finishes that would send every fish in sight scurrying for cover. This seems to be guided by the belief that the customers want these gaudy bejeweled collectors items, and maybe they do - has anyone done a survey? Hopefully some of the high-production builders like AJ and Nunley will offer their sage opinions based on what sells for them. I'm sure there will always be a collectors market for these fancy rods but how about what the average fisherman who just wants a cane rod to fish with? (Larry Puckett) Well, here goes: I tried rubbing my rods out before putting the guides on them and got a nice satin finish ALA Bob's spinner with the glossy wraps but I didn't have the patience to wait for the varnish to set up enough so the wraps didn't "settle in" (for want of a better term) leaving me with immovable spacing in my wraps. I couldn't burnish worth a hoot and so gave up the noble experiment. I now dip after wrapping and try to shine up everything. Patience is not a familiar concept to us type A++'s *BSEG*. I now offer a finding presented to me by a friend some of you may be familiar with. Wendell (Oz) Ozefovich is better known as Underwater Oz and has made some absolutely fantastic videos of fish in all their natural surroundings. If you've not seen any of Oz's stuff and you get a chance DO NOT pass it up. Anyway, for my point. Oz has filmed all sorts of fishermen using all sorts of rods and he has noted the flash, and its effect on wild fish, of the rods oscillating under stress. By far the worst he's seen are the flats of cane rods, catching the sun over a small but finite flat surface, rather than the curvature of a tubular blank! (Gloss graphite is worse than the brushed finish.) He loves to needle me when he's making a presentation, saying that we all ought to just save the finishing time and spray the things flat black! I know THAT ain't ever gonna happen, but its an interesting monkey wrench to toss into the discussion, no? (Art Port) In the early 1900's both Hardy and Leonard offered enamel finishes. The Hardys were gray, I think, and the one Leonard I've seen was dark green. The idea was to avoid spooking the trout. It's also a good argument for black guides and ferrules. Hmmm, might try this on the next rod. (Ted Knott) My first shot at finishing was a hand rubbed tung oil job I did on an old South Bend. I rather liked the matte finish I got with just the oil. I did the wraps in gloss varnish which made for a cool effect. On my own rods I used to knock down the gloss between coats with pumice and paraffin oil. It made for a nice fine matte appearance. As a finishing touch I would bring the gloss back with rottenstone and then finish it with Perfect It II. The finish was brighter than "just dipped". (Dennis Haftel) How well I know this story. Found that out years ago when I started refinishing rods. I now apply several coats of Formby's right after heat setting the glue. This seals the blank and dries well enough overnight as not to hang up the wraps. (Tony Spezio) I have two such "stealth rods" and I'd like to say I've noticed a difference... but I haven't. I think how you fish is probably more important than what you fish. If you fish standing up, waving your rod around, you're going to spook fish regardless. If a finish does the job of sealing the rod, then that's good enough for me, regardless of what it is. Still, it's interesting to see just what some people can do with finish. (Jim Lowe) To justify the ridiculous price of some cane fly rods, the aesthetics are far and away the most QUANTIFIABLE aspect of the rod to the knuckle-head investment bankers and others who have decided to live a life totally and utterly focused toward making as much money as possible. Trying to quantify a great taper and its resultant great action is lost on 98% of the population. And that means 98% of investment bankers, too! The same thing has happened in the guitar industry (one that has a lot of corollaries to ours). The Len Codella’s of that industry describe the jewelry-like components of guitars more than they do things like "playability." The guys who can afford the expensive guitars often are COLLECTORS, not PLAYERS. Sheesh! It makes me happy to see guys making workmanlike, functional rods. That's the kind I'll make, unless someone wants a fancy one. (Joe West) I just took a look at my dad's Heddon Expert (admittedly not a top of the line rod, it was made for Sears). It's about 50 years old and never been fished. Still had the plastic wrap on the grip when I got it, but that and the bag succumbed to age. The finish is semi-gloss in my opinion, about what I get with 6 or 7 coats of Birchwood Casey's Tru-Oil rubbed out with Meguires. (Neil Savage) I know Garrison rubbed the gloss varnish to a satin state on many rods as he felt the gloss finish would spook fish . The problem with using semi-gloss varnish in a dip tube is the problem of mixing prior to dipping. Gloss varnish need not be dipped. (Marty DeSapio) Yes, I agree Marty. It is better to rub the gloss down to what you want. That extra particulate seems like a waste. I wonder why even bother with semi gloss out of the can? Thanks, (Bob Maulucci) I've used Varathane 9000 gloss for about 15 years. After about 25 rods or so of dipping the whole rod - guides and all, I've taken to dipping minus guides. Then I rub down the gloss with a car paint oxide polishing compound. Leaves a great matte finish. I, like some of the others, am shooting for a rod that fishes. A glossy finish didn't seem to cut it in the spring creek I haunt. I used gloss as the particles in semi or matte finish stuff have to be stirred all the time to keep them in suspension. I dip. But the 9000 does have it's draw backs. I fish a lot. Several of the rods I use have had varnish chipping along the seams. They only appear in the butt of the rod. No idea what causes this although I suspect that it may be caused by too "hard" a finish. For that reason, I switched the dip tube over to Minwax urethane spar. Just finished up 2 rod wraps this week and I noticed that the finish [Minwax] is soft enough that the wrap thread "bites" into the finish. What I've also noticed is that it's a bitch to get the same fine matte finish on the Minwax as the 9000 coating. May have something to do with the "softness" of the material. Taking the little "buggers" out of the finish is a lot tougher. Anyone got any ideas how to take the "buggers" outta Minwax? (Don Anderson) Thanks for your expertise. I do use the Helmsmen when I dip, and it can take a while to get hard enough to rub out. Maybe if we both like a semi or matte finish, it would be okay to simply rub on a few coats of good spar and then rub it out? That is my next try, Schooner wiped on and rubbed to semi gloss. (Bob Maulucci) Rottenstone. Works great for dulling down the Minwax. Mix it into a slurry paste with Danish oil and rub it onto the finish with a piece of felt or other soft cloth.. (Mark Wendt) A vote from the "Peanut Gallery". As a user, not a maker, I must say I prefer the mat finished rods.. even the straight impregnated rods. My problem with the "ultra-finished" rods is similar to my problem with beautifully engraved and inlaid firearms... I have no desire to scratch the beast. My beautiful 3 barrel gun stays in the cabinet for the most part because I don't want to mar any portion of it, and it has survived over 75 years in perfect condition... which is ridiculous since it should be used regularly... same problem with the mirror finished rods. Love my Orvis Impregnated rods because I just don't have to worry about them. (Ralph Shuey) I personally like the semi-gloss finish for fishing. I have no idea what the market is with respect to gloss Vs. semi-gloss Vs. flat finish. I have had several of my friends who fish say they like the semi-gloss bamboo finish they have seen. Of course, that does not mean they may purchase a rod with that finish. I think the plastic rod market "suggests" that all fly rods should look shiny. Just a thought. (Frank Paul) I agree with you. I like a much duller finish on my rod. It seems though that everyone I build a rod for though, wants to see a blinding flash from high gloss. Oh well! I make my own rods the way I like and go fishing. I sold a rod to a fella recently and he hung it on the wall. I hate that, too. I thought of going over to his house to get the rod from his wall and replacing it with a shiny unfishable thing. but...! (Timothy Troester)
If you spray (which is the best way to do that finish) you really need an explosion proof fan and booth. I keep meaning to bring a rod blank to my old guitar shop to have my buddies spray it, but I am too lazy. (Bob Maulucci) Speaking of guitars, nitrocellulose lacquer, and French polishing... A friend of mine showed me a video about finishing guitars. Specifically, this video focused on "relicing" a guitar, a term used to describe the process of making a guitar appear to be used and/or older than it really is. It is a technique that, if done well can look good, but if done poorly looks like a guy in a pastel leisure suit standing next to James Bond. Anyway, old nitrocellulose finished guitars have a tendency to crack over time (the finish, not the guitar) due to many factors, most notably moisture and temperature fluctuations. To achieve this look, the gentleman who made the video used the following technique: First he did whatever was needed to prepare the surface (sanding, grain filling, etc.). Then, he used the technique being discussed called French Polishing using shellac. There was some pigmentation involved with the shellac, but I will skip that here, as it really isn't relevant. He then top-coated with nitrocellulose lacquer, and let harden. I do not remember the amount of time between the shellac and nitro, nor do I remember the time he allowed for the nitro to dry before the final step (nitrocellulose takes an incredible amount of time to actually cure). As I recall both times were important for the final step, and the final step is the really neat part. He took a can of propellant, attached a small diameter hose with a valve on the business end, and shot the propellant wherever he wanted cracking to occur on the guitar finish. The sudden cold temperature of the propellant, combined with the dissimilar finishes caused the nitrocellulose finish to crack. It looked like some of those cracked glass candle globes you sometimes see. I have not considered this for a rod, but intend on finishing a reel seat in this fashion sometime down the road. (Carl DiNardo) Nitrocellulose lacquers won't stand up to water very well and they are very brittle. We use catalyzed lacquer to finish cabinets on the job, it makes a nice finish on the cabinets, but the overspray on the spray stand looks pretty bad after it gets rained on once. One of the reasons that most old rods with color preserved wraps have the wraps cracked is the lacquer used for color preserver, and the new lacquers are even worse. (John Channer)
I have never had a problem doing repairs with the varnish with either poly or spar. Simply polish(polishing compound) it all together after it has cured. (Marty DeSapio) I'm sure a lot of us varnish after wrapping the rod. The best way I have found to redo a wrap after varnishing is to run a razor blade lightly around the edge of the wrap and cut the varnish(only) so as to get a clean edge to wrap to. I found that if I just cut the wrap and peeled it off, I was likely to get some chipping around the edges that are very difficult to fill and polish out, it works best to keep the edge as clean as possible. (John Channer) I now dip my rods first with two coats of thin varnish, then wrap and finish the guides. Then one final dip in very warm, very thin varnish to give it that "finished" look. Dipping on an unwrapped blank makes it easy to sand and polish out any imperfections, and the base coats are much less prone to runs w/o guides. Wrapping a finished blank is tougher, but not that much tougher. (Jeff Schaeffer)
The varnish is left on the guides. That is no problem, a few casts and it will be gone. I will add this, you want to stop at each wrap and let the varnish run off as not to get runs. You also want to stop at the bottom of each guide till the varnish film breaks in the guide. If you don't the film will break after the varnish is past the guide and leave a run. I stop at each wrap and each guide, also drain the varnish so that it does not run away from the ring on the walls of the tube. (Tony Spezio) When, many years ago, I constructed a primitive dip tube and left the varnish on the rings I found that the rings seemed to wear more quickly as a groove wore in the varnish and thus the line wear tended to be in the same space. Probably, I dipped it too much in varnish that was too thick, but after that I took to sort of reaming the inside of the ring with a scalpel blade. I stopped doing this because I never liked the look of rings with varnish on and I couldn’t be bothered to scrape it off, although if you do this fairly soon after dipping its not hard. When carbon appeared I never liked to varnish the bits in between the rings, so I just did the whippings, still do unless asked to do otherwise. Sometimes, on saltwater rods, I use West epoxy with varnish hardener, it makes them a bit more abrasion resistant. It does add a bit of weight, and you need to degrease the piece first. I don't personally care for the result. I suppose that I am so used to the brush or finger technique that its quicker, finding a dust free environment in an old granite cottage with animals (not just me) is the real challenge. I'm going to make another drying cabinet, it's about job number 390 on a list that will take me another 200 years if I retire now! (Robin Haywood)
I have pretty much concluded that for me the best way is to dip the blank, rub down, wrap the guides, varnish the wraps, and then dip the whole thing again. It makes the wraps look better. (Bob Maulucci) I used to do exactly what you did, but I found that I was never getting a clean transition area from wrap to blank. I would miss the wrap and get the blank and it was difficult to clean up. Now I dip each section twice, use steel wool to clean up the blank, wrap, varnish my wraps and then do 1 more final dip. (Mark Babiy) | |||
