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A question was asked about caring for fly lines that had been stored on a fly reel and ended up coiled when it came off. Clean the lines (they probably need it, anyway) in hot (tap hot, not boiling), mild soapy water. Give Œem a good rub down with a soft dry cloth and hang them up in loose loops for a while. If you can, loose coils (say 8 to 10 inches in diameter) is the best way to store a line if you aren't planning to fish it for a while. However, this process lends itself to a certain amount of frustrating inertia when you are trying to get a quick start to go fishing! (Jason Swan) PS: Make sure to mark the proximal end when you take it off your reel (if you use a WF line) or you could mess up your cast. And, go slow when you rewind the line, or you could get some major snarls. I usually string the thing around my house, then follow it along as I reel it in. I have, in the past, stretched a line that had bad coils in it, between trees in the back yard. The sun will heat it as it stays slightly stretched and it will get most of the tight coils out of the line... only problem is that this time of year, the sun generally doesn't help much in the cool fall air. Never tried it this time of year, but it may be worth a try. (Bob Nunley) I just stretch them and have no problems. (Bret Reiter) This is one of those things that I don't think twice about, but for someone who doesn't know to do it, I guess it could be a valuable tip.... The way I do it is to strip out the first 30 feet of fly line and string up the rod. Pull all 30 feet of line out the tip top, and then starting with my hands almost all the way apart, grip the line and pull your arms all the way apart. This will straighten about 6 feet of line. Work your way down the line to straighten all 30 feet. Then I cast the line to straighten the 30' in front of me. Strip another 8 to 10 feet off the reel. Let the loop hang down and put your foot in the loop. Pull up against the bottom of your foot with pretty good force. Cast this out in front again. Keep stripping and pulling against your foot until you have enough to fish. Works great, and I do it virtually every time I cast or fish. If you are using one of the high memory saltwater lines, it is a must, or you'll fight the tight coils all day and will not be able to shoot line without making a mess. Note -- When I am using my carbide cleated felt soles, I don't pull against my foot. I just keep doing the "hands apart" method. (Troy Miller)
I have a few silk lines that I fish whenever possible. I'm really happy with the way they perform on my cane rods. As far as I'm concerned, there's no comparison between silk and plastic. The silk lines go through the guides like a scalded dog compared to the PVC lines of the same "weight". While I don't have any older (silk) lines, I would recommend getting your hands on one. If you can't, you won't be disappointed with a new one, even at the rather hefty price tag of modern silk these days. I believe there are two brands available, Thiebault and Phoenix. I have both and they cast and fish about the same. I haven't noticed any appreciable differences in the two other than appearance and the dressing used to treat each respective brand. Anyway... Give them a try. I think you'll like the results. (Dennis Haftel) Dennis, You bring up another good question!!!! I have some old refinished silk lines that I use also. But tell me, what are the subtle differences in line coatings on the 2 brands of new lines that you mentioned? Just curious. I would like to buy a new line myself sometime soon. (Randall Gregory) I don't really know. I only know that they're a marked improvement over their AFTMA vinyl substitutes (ala Cortland and SA). If you were to ask me (and you did), I'd tell you to buy the silk regardless of the brand name. In other words, I think they're both worth trying, and haven't found any appreciable differences in either one. But isn't that the beauty of what we do? I have both lines (Phoenix and Thiebault, that is) and think they have few discernible differences, if any, other than cosmetics. If you're a Chanel fashion flyfishing model (is there such a thing?) you might have a preference. I don't. [;-)] (Dennis Haftel) Randall, take a look at the article by Reed Curry. An excerpt regarding what I think you mean when you say coatings (dressings?): ... I've found only two manufacturers, both in France - Phoenix and Thiebault. In comparing them, there are several marked differences. The Thiebault lines appear to be translucent, indicating a saturation with an oil, such as was common to old silk lines, whereas the Phoenix has greater opacity, a waxy look. In color both might be considered a shade of pale gold, the Thiebault only slightly darker; but the Thiebault has a slight mottling indicative of some hand work, the Phoenix is completely even in tone. The tips of both the Thiebault and Phoenix, in light line weights, are .024", certainly a lot more delicate than PVC lines. The Thiebault line comes with several ounces of a proprietary dressing in a tin container (several seasons worth), the Phoenix comes with a ""tin" (plastic) of the red Mucilin (good for half a season). The Thiebault will require some breaking in to take the initial stiffness out, not so the Phoenix. The Phoenix appears to be a more polished product overall, but at a higher price. A new DT4 made by Phoenix runs $180-$250 depending on the US distributor and delivery can be a problem. Thiebault has more modest prices and a greater range, offering 1/2 double tapers, as well as DT and WF. I have the Thiebault (from Olaf, which is also I think where Dennis got his) and am very happy with it. Dennis' "scalded dog" analogy is a good description, silk really shoots (probably causes more wear too, but I think it's worth it, there was a thread on this I believe). I think Olaf told me that once I properly coat the Thiebault with the proprietary dressing, I can switch to the red Mucilin (make SURE it's the red, NOT green), but I will just use up what I have of the original stuff. The green has silicone. BAD for cane and any future revarnishing from what I hear. (Andy Harsanyi)
Can someone explain to me the characteristics that make a silk line different from a modern plastic line? As far as I can make out so far:
Someone told me a silk fly line is like using a modern intermediate that is more supple and floats. I don't know if this is right [;-)] A friend of mine has some contacts in the fly line industry and is talking about developing a modern line with the Characteristics of silk lines - specifically for use on bamboo rods! Sounds good if it can be done, but we need a hand. (Nick Kingston)
You need to use a silk line to understand why (a lot of but not all) people like them. Being denser they just feel better to cast and cut through the air better because of the thinner cross section. They tend to be more positive during the cast too. The line feels like it moves faster and loads better as a result IMHO. A little like the behavior of a sinking line. What isn't nice about them is having to dry and dress them at the end of the day. If you're based from home or are set up for it it's no big deal but traveling with one is a hassle unless you just enjoy messing with kit and some do. Something I noticed when I used one at Grayling at night during the hex hatches which is the only place I ever fished at night very much before is you can judge distance pretty well by listening to the line. When it starts to slow down through the guides you know it's about to be on the water. I know you can do that anyhow with a plastic line but it's much easier with silk. Basically it's like pornography. You know it when you see it but can't really describe it without also describing art. Silk and plastic lines are like that. As far as making a plastic line that behaves like silk you'd need to find something like lead for the core to make it dense but also make it float without making it too bulky. Tricky. (Tony Young) I would add several other differences: As for the comparison to a PVC intermediate, the silk is also an intermediate and both require dressing to float. The PVC line has only a similar diameter to silk (though not as fine in the tip), no other positive characteristics in common, IMO. (Reed Curry) I have tried the Cortland Peach 444SL and the now discontinued McKenzie. I felt they were each OK, until I tried the Phoenix silk line I bought from J. D. Wagner. It really livened up my Orvis Far & Fine 5 wt! Loops are now tight and neat, distance is greater with less effort! I am willing to put up with the additional maintenance, it is far outweighed by the improved casting performance (my flawed style needs all the help it can get! (Eric Barksdale) I do a lot of serious navel gazing myself you know. Something I've come to believe is the whole fly fishing scene has been attempting to return to what everybody was using in the 50's. That being in EFFECT the balance of bamboo and silk lines but using synthetic materials. Bamboo rods pretty much got as good as they ever can in the days of Dickerson etc. There are hundreds of tapers but you can pretty much say there can be nothing new in taper development. There would be lost classics but there are enough with us to say they can't be improved upon in any meaningful way. Silk was the line used back then so the rods were tuned for silk. The silk lines were tuned for bamboo rods. They feel like they were made for each other because they were made for each other. Synthetic rods arrive. The early glass rods were slow and lots were pretty nice to use so silk was still good but expensive. Rods get faster mainly because most glass rods were possibly too slow. Plastic lines become the only viable lines but they are bulky so slow rods are heavy weather so faster rods become popular to speed the line up. Graphite and boron arrive for salt use but as they really make lines zip they become the way to go for all rods. The lines are still bulky and the rods have become about as fast as they can without causing too much tennis elbow in users. So we've basically developed bamboo rods to cast silk in a relaxed manner and graphite rods to cast plastic in a brutal manner. Art or porn, take your pick. Both seem to have reached their apogee and all there is to making a break through is the use of new materials or ideas. A synthetic line that casts like silk would be ideal. (Tony Young)
This might help. Line Diameters A .060 Then you can use this to convert to "normal" line nos. Letter Designation No. 1 60 NA NA The only way you can tell the weight of a silk line is to weigh the first 30 feet. Different finishing processes, different braiding patterns, whether or not the first level 6 feet has been cut back or not, etc. all make a difference. The AFTMA chart goes by weight. An unknown line has to be weighed. Nowadays it does you no good to know that your line is a HDH or whatever. The diameter of a silk line does not consistently translate into the modern line rating weights. (Darryl Hayashida) Is that first 30' measured with the front taper or without it? I've heard both and it will make quite a bit of difference when you're talking about such fine increments of weight. (Bob Nunley) AFTMA charts say the weight of the first 30 feet. I don't see anything in the specs that say without the front taper. But, if you think about it, it's the weight of line that a fly rod can handle. Why would you subtract any part of the first 30 feet when the rod has to handle the weight of all of it? (Darryl Hayashida) The standard is the first 30' --- not including any level tip section. So you must find the beginning of the taper then measure 30' and weigh only that portion, supporting the level tip and the balance of the line. Why not measure the level tip (which might be 2'-12' depending on the manufacturer), I don't know, perhaps Leon Chandler remembers, he was in the standards committee in 1961. (Reed Curry) Perhaps the level tip was meant to be trimmed away? All of my silk lines I got used, and none of them have level tips. (Darryl Hayashida)
I would be interested to hear other opinions on what plastic lines you like with your cane rods and why. (Kyle Druey) I like the SA. XPS line because of it's long forward taper. (Timothy Troester) The nicest line I've used on bamboo is marketed under the Hardy brand. It's called their Ice Blue line. I forget who actually makes them but these are quite supple without being floppy and cast and shoot pretty well. Not overly expensive lines from memory. (Tony Young) I have a collector friend that has several PVC, or something coated silk lines. they are very supple and more resistant to soaking up water. I really like these lines but they have not been made in years I guess. (Timothy Troester) The ice blue line is marketed in the UK as their 'Dry Fly Line' and is made as are all Hardy lines by.......Scientific Anglers. (Paul Blakley) This may sound strange, but a the Metolious bamboo event I had several people ask about the line I had on my 6 weight because they really like it. I sheepishly replied that it was a SA air cell that I dyed gray. I might have to pick up some more of those lines. (Tim Stoltz) My favorite lines with cane are in order and all DT: Orvis High Flote (I believe now discontinued in DT), Orvis Wonderline, Cortland 444 Peach. The rest I am not crazy about. I tried them all including silk. (Marty DeSapio) I agree with Marty, I love the Orvis HyFlote Double Tapers, too bad they were discontinued (still have some NIB that I was able to find in some Orvis shops and fly fishing shows). (Bob Williams) I have been using the Wulff Triangle Tapers for a few years now and they seem to cast on Bamboo nicely, I don't find they float very well though. (Shawn Pineo) I like Windcutters a lot on my cane. TT are nice as well. (Of course I like my silks, but I am not always up for the hassle of them). (Bob Maulucci)
From time to time I find an old braided fly line on a $.50 reel that is so sticky it will hardly strip off the reel. At this point I find it difficult to tell whether the line is silk or nylon. The only thing that I've found that will strip the old finish off is a good soaking in acetone. I figure, I've got near nothing invested in the line, so if it falls apart, I've not lost much and the line would not have been salvageable anyway. After soaking over night it should be 'stripped' out into a paper bag, through a clean rag (wear gloves) and maybe return it to the acetone for another soak. Once I'm satisfied that it is 'clean', I string it up to dry. Then, when dry, soak it again in scotch guard and allow to dry. Then 'strip on' 2 thin coats of QUALITY spar, allowing 2 weeks drying time between coats. I know, I will probably get a lot of flack about the use of acetone on old fly lines, but I have thick skin, and it works for me. (Don Greife) Acetone will do the job, but it takes time and is not as kind to the skin as some other chemicals. But one can't argue with success. On the other hand, I've found that soaking a line (on or off the reel) in a gallon of warm (e.g., a hot bath) water with 1/3 box of baking soda mixed in, strips a line quickly (30 minutes) and thoroughly. (Reed Curry) That's a new one for me. You can bet that my next attempt will be with a "hot, thick baking soda bath. Has to be a lot easier to do than acetone. (Don Greife) One of those sonic cleaners that jewelers use to clean jewelry does the job very well. When you take it out of the bath it is really clean. (Timothy Troester)
These lines I kid you not are like new, very very supple with a non-sticky oil dressing. When I asked the philanthropist who gave me them how come they were in such good condition he said it was all down to out of season storage? Apparently at the end of each season he simply flooded the lines (still on the reels) with LIQUID PARAFFIN, dried off the surplus and left them there until the new season. Have any of you 'Silk Heads' ever heard of this method before.I kid you not these lines that I have been given are like new! (Paul Blakley) What it does is act as a preserver and stops the linseed oil from oxidizing to a sticky mess. You don’t need much linseed to make a silk line work properly and it just builds up and builds up. I would have thought that turpentine would have been better, as that is the usual solvent for linseed. Can you get an old silk line to try this out on though! You are too close for comfort and far too helpful to annoy if it goes wrong! (Robin Haywood) Mmmmmmmmmmm, perhaps one of the chemists on the list can expand on this one? As for turpentine I have my doubts.........my guess is that it would strip off the precious coating ......come in you chemists.....(Paul Blakley) Of course, but I meant GENUINE turpentine, the one with the lovely smell! I might as well add that were I in possession of silk to experiment on I should dope it with beeswax and silicone dissolved in carbon tetrachloride! Carbon Tet will also clean old silk lines like magic, but I have to be careful not to be too revolutionary! (Robin Haywood) By "Paraffin" do you mean Kerosene or wax heated 'til liquid? (Reed Curry) The chap who gave me the lines uses medicinal paraffin that he obtains from a chemists/pharmacy.........hope this helps.....(Paul Blakley) We call that "mineral oil" on this side of the pond. It comes in light and heavy...your friend probably used the heavy. I can see how that might exclude oxygen. It should also grease the reel nicely. Do the Kingfishers have the long front taper and a long level tip? The Phoenix use only a 4' taper and a 2' tip, so I was wondering how you like the longer taper. (Reed Curry) The lines I have here have a level tip of about 5' followed by a tapered length of about 2 'and then onto the belly of the line. One interesting point is that the cross section of the line is square and not circular. I checked this out with the original owner (now in his eighty sixth year and still fishing!) who has told me that Kingfisher lines that are circular in cross section date to before World War 2 and post World War 2 the cross sections became square.........all true.......my eyes are not deceiving me.........(Paul Blakley) It's conceivable the paraffin would exclude the air to stop any oxidation. I don't suppose it would do any harm, as Mucilin seems to have a proportion of paraffin wax in it also. I envisage he was using medicinal paraffin oil which occupies that part of the range between kerosene or lamp/sove fuel, and paraffin wax. Note this is just conversational speculation on my part, not facts! (Dave Kennedy) Correct........it is the medicinal variety !..........(Paul Blakley) Paraffin is one of those annoying words that has different meanings in different parts of the world. In the UK and Northern Asia it means kerosene as per the Optimus hiking stove labels but it's also what non beeswax candles are made of which may be the same thing in a different form minus the smell somehow? Then again I remember as a kid there was a viscous preparation you could get for slicking hair in the days of ducktails and blue suede shoes which had paraffin in it. I remember reading the label and knowing what candles were made from made me wonder which is why I remember it. I wonder if there is a way of liquefying paraffin candles and keeping it liquid then removing it without ruining the line? Can't imagine kero being very good for line storage. (Tony Young) Paraffin dissolves in paint thinner and I think also in turps. the violin shop I worked at dissolved it in paint thinner and we painted the ends of green maple and spruce to keep them from checking (Patrick Coffey) Remember that paint thinner on a silk line would just about finish it. (Jack Follweiler) I haven't been following this thread, so I don't know if anyone has made this suggestion. Art Warner, who some of you may know, shared with me his line storage technique and I like it. You find one of those tin 16 millimeter film cans -- you know, around an inch thick and 12 or 15 inches in diameter, and you dump talcum powder inside. Loosely coil the line to fit the film tin and seal. Art's lines are always in good shape after storage. I have never tried it myself, only because I have not gotten around to finding a film can. I loosely coil my lines and drape them over a wooden hanger and put over the line one on those paper covers the cleaners puts over the shoulder portion of a blazer to keep the dust away. (Chris Lucker)
Question: Are any of you silk line fans troubled by weakness on those very old silk lines you find on reels in flea markets? (Bill Fink) Some just fall apart with the lightest pressure. Not sure if it was moisture or not. (Jerry Madigan) Yep! bought 2 old reels with silk lines on them, the level F was fine, but the HEH was rotten. (John Channer) Yes, I have gotten some lines with grayish spots or sections. If I pull on the line it breaks at the gray spots, but the good lines have outnumbered the rotten ones. I must admit I don't string my silk lines out to dry and I haven't had any problems. But then I live in a fairly dry climate. (Darryl Hayashida)
Try loop-to-loop but make sure both loops are really small. (Guillermo Magari) I attach an 18 inch piece of Amnesia mono approximately 2/3 the diameter of the silk line to the silk with a nail knot. I put a perfection loop in the mono and the furled leader and attach loop to loop. Amnesia is bright orange/red and can be used as a strike indicator. (Dennis Aebersold) I was told to use either a nail knot or loop to loop system. They say the nail knot is stronger. (Randy Tuttle) I personally prefer the nail knot. With a furled leader, a five turn knot is too bulky. Use a 3 turn knot, which will hold perfectly because of the multi strand nature of the leader. (Tom Smithwick) I overlap the leader and line by 1/2 inch and use fly tying thread to whip the furled leader to the line, finishing with some head cement, makes a nice small junction. (Danny Twang) That sounds like a good idea Danny. does the knot sink after a while? (Mike Canazon) No, I've never had problem with the junction sinking, but then I never worries if the leader sink, I even use "mud" on my tippet. As You might know, all my fishing is in spring creek like streams (meaning crystal clear), with huge, very intelligent trout only accepting ultra life like imitations perfectly presented upstream with no drag what so ever:-))) (Danny Twang)
Knowledge is power and I'm powerless! (Dennis Haftel) So, it sounds like you didn't take the lines off the reel. :^) A lot of guys are buying old reels to get the silk lines off them. Some of them have been good. The one I got wasn't. I think you should go fishing and see what happens. If your silk line breaks on a world record brook trout that would be like Job's worst plagues wouldn't it. Myself, I am a safety man. I wear both belt and suspenders. (Timothy Troester) I have several silk lines, one new one or relatively, and some well over ten years old. I never take them off the reel, but yer suppose to. Just make sure they are really dry before storing, and then clean them once in awhile with turpentine. So far, no plagues, but then you never know. (Bob Milardo) Chances are that the line will begin to go sticky and then as you unreel it, bits of the coating will adhere to a nearby loop and you have a line that needs refinishing. (Sean McSharry)
Not a big problem to me , as I made up a bottle of it years ago, but want to pass it on to a friend who has come by a couple of sound but dirty lines. (Peter McKean) How about this here? (Larry Blan) It may be of interest to the List that I was given a silk line a couple of years ago by an elderly fly fisherman who has since died. He gave me the history of the line when he gave it to me. It was a "best" English line, sort of amber in color, and probably cost an arm and a leg when new. It was owned by a man who tended to buy the best he could afford, and then to look after it meticulously. This line has been spliced once where it was damaged, and lost only a couple of inches in the process, and I would defy anybody to look at this line and not think it was pretty well new. It was bought in 1935, and was fished hard by its original owner until his death in the early 60's, at which stage it passed to the son of the person who gave it to me, who then fished it and cared for it into the late 80's. It was wound onto a drying spool then, and was pretty well unused for about 10 years, until interest was reawakened in the old bamboo rods that were in the family, and has since got regular though not intense use. So this line has been used and cared for over a period of 70 years. You just don't get that with plastics! (Peter McKean) Even at today's prices, being able to use a silk line for 70 years or longer makes them a "reel" bargain. Works out to less than $2.00 US a year for the line. I'm happy with mine, and look forward to using it for many more years. (Mark Wendt)
Here is what the label says: "Finest Quality Silk, Gladding's, saline, special process silk fly line, LEVEL, size G 25 yards, made in USA" Does "saline" mean it is to be used in salt water fishing? Would this line have any collect able value and would it be devalued by using it? Does "level" mean that there is no taper to it. Any help anyone could give me especially regarding what weight and what type of use it would best be suited for would be very much appreciated. (Dick Steinbach) A level "G" should be a 3wt. (Mike Shay) I reconditioned a silk line from an old $10 reel bought on eBay. Umpqua sells a simple fly line scale ($20) that measures the weight of 30 ft of line in grams and tells you the weight rod that probably loads it. (This scale comes in handy if you remove a bunch of lines from your reels and your labels fall off) The gram scale indicated that my used silk line is is probably meant for the equivalent of a modern 3/4 weight rod. Indeed it loads well on a 7 foot 4 wt bamboo rod. (Paul Franklyn) There's a conversion chart on Todd's tips site. (Neil Savage) A "G" wt silk line is an AFTMA 3 wt. You can go to "Anglers collectible exchange" they have a chart there. If I were you I would build a 4 wt rod, It will probably cast your line well. If it does not, make up a mix of 1/2 Formby’s tung oil finish and 1/2 turpentine, and wipe this on the first 30 ft of your line. Let it dry for 24 hours, then test cast. Do this until the line cast like you want it to. Then use red tin Mucilin on it from then on. (David Matthews)
What kind of line should I look at getting. Like I've mentioned many times before I'm really new to fly fishing. I've read lots of stuff about lots of different lines. Right now I have a DT 5 that I picked up off the shelf last summer for the graphite rod I bought when I started - no idea what brand it was. From what I've read it looks like Cortland Sylk, Cortland 444 peach, Royal Wulff TT might be good choices. Does the brand and style (DT, WF, TT, etc.) really make a huge difference with how a rod casts? If so, what's the best way for me to go about matching my new rod to a line without buying a dozen different lines? I'm assuming a 5 weight will be best because that's what the taper called for - but I'm also sure that I'm not spot on the taper. I'm not really interested in real silk. I don't have the money to buy a new one, and I don't have the discipline to really take care of one either. I'm sure this post will get a ton of different responses, but I really enjoy reading everyone's differing opinions. (Aaron Gaffney) Just use the line and see how it goes and when you're around others see how their line goes and what they think with the combinations. The other thing is if you're going to be making different rods with different weights on a regular basis is get cheap lines to try them out. You can get cheap lines from a few places but one good source is John Norris in the UK but be warned the web site shopping experience isn't as flash as you may be used to. A bit archaic but you'll get there. Been getting stuff from these blokes for years. Look under Lines-John Norris Theses guys have all the usual suspects too like Wulf and Hardy etc but under the Norris brand are mill end at 3.99 UK pounds less 17.5% VAT and intermediate lines ranging from 4.99 to 7.99. Even have a spey line at 24.99 UK pounds. You have to add post of course but these lines are CHEAP!!!! 7.99 UK pounds less 17.5% VAT = 6.59 pounds = about $US 11.60. IMHO forget the mill end lines (lines cut from end runs or complete seconds and could be anything) but the next wrung up the ladder aren't too bad at all. They weight about right so you can cast them OK but don't have the nice qualities of the better lines as far as line handling like memory in the line but I've seen worse in lines that cost 3 times the price too. It's a lucky dip with these lines, sometimes they're soft sometimes not but I never got any total junk and I've weighted them all and seem within tolerance. Years back I got one of their spey lines to see what it was like and I still use it. Didn't expect much from it when I bought it but it was fine. Not el supreme but OK. In fact until recently these were the only lines I ever used because when I started making rods I made all weights and couldn't spring for all the lines. I got these cheap lines to test the rods and found they weren't that bad for a mug like me so wound up using them fishing. Finally decided to get some good lines and the stingy side of me made me by silk because they last longer. You don't need anything special to test the rod, a good line shows it's colors when fishing. That's when silk shines (or decent plastic lines too I admit grudgingly). If you buy cheapies to begin with when you know the rod and line combo you really like spring for the silk but save for it in the mean time. A cheap line won't cause bad habits and may teach good ones in that they're not as forgiving. A tip by the way. If you do get one or two of these and do find it coils all the time stretch it mercilessly. Makes all the difference. BTW good used silk lines aren't that dear. (Tony Young) Your treatise on inexpensive lines is probably the first time I remember having a significant difference of opinion from you. I'm a big believer in buying quality fly lines, both for testing rods and fishing. Try almost any rod with a $15 line, and then with a $50+ line and the difference seems quite apparent to me. If no one has suggested it, Aaron might try his local fly shop. Many fly shops carry demo lines. Try several out, making notes as you go. Make fishing casts, not casting pool casts. Try mending line in the air and on water. Pull the entire line off the reel and see what it takes to get the coils out. Really give each line a thorough look. Then -- buy the line at the local fly shop !! Don't try the fly shop's lines, then buy mail order because you can save a few cents. I think that's unethical. In find the difference in performance to be great enough to make the extra dollars a wise investment. I like the Cortland 444 Classic lines, Scientific Anglers XPS and XXD, Wulff Triangle Taper Lines, and Orvis Wonderlines. We each make our own choices. Just as I think you should never put a $5 set of nickel plated brass ferrules on a bamboo rod, you should never put a $15 line on a $1000 rod. (Harry Boyd) Well my thinking is there's a big difference between testing and fishing. What you need to test is something that loads the rod right but fishing's a different matter. I wasn't suggesting these cheap lines are as good as the good ones but are good enough in a pinch and actually aren't terrible to fish with either. The lines in question are supposed to be British made and likely don't meet specs for the known brands but I weigh them and find they meets specs. Also these ones I have don't have memory problems but I'm not saying these never do. I started off with a DT 6 Hardy line on a Hardy reel no less. I then bought a spare spool and a Hardy DT 5 to put on it. There was no way I was going to get away with 3 more $80 lines and when I got a hand full of these cheapies I discovered that they suited perfectly and was damned glad I didn't pay the extra. The only real difference I can tell beyond what can be accounted for and you get variations between the good lines too is in the actual fishing. The point you make re line coiling is where the good lines are way ahead of the cheap ones though in fact these ones I have don't have coil problems at all but that's not important for testing rods and IMHO silk is the very best no matter what the rod material. I'm not being elitist about that I just think they beat any plastic line flat so if you're leaning that way anyhow make do till you get what you want. The cheapies are just an opinion that if you're strapped for cash and will do in the mean time. Incidentally I had one of these on the Hardy reel and lent it to a mate who used it with a Sage. When he returned it told me what a great line it was and that's no joke. Bad wine in a decent bottle situation I guess. I AM NOT saying there's no difference between lines, you are right, the good lines are very good. They all beat that bloody line thing Chris Bogart had at Grayling though :-) Hate to seem a complete Ludite but I'm not overly excited about Hardy reels either. Not for the price. (Tony Young) Tony is right! "IMHO silk is the very best no matter what the rod material." The next best fly line to silk is the $9.95 WALMART Crystal River? It has the thinnest tip of all PVC lines and is very supple! My fishing pal Maynard Olson has been fishing one for four years! So save your money and let your second line be silk! (Olaf Borge) OOPS! I do have a financial interest! But not in the second best Crystal River fly line. (Olaf Borge) I fish small streams a lot, and use level lines, Walmart line or just old lines that work fine. I don't need a $60 line or an expensive silk to cast 20 feet and get beat up on the rocks. I catch plenty of fish, use dry flies, and my rods seem pretty happy :>) Eek! Did I say level lines? What heresy. Don't forget, the cheap lines of today were the leading edge technology not so long ago. People actually caught fish back then. I hate being a sucker for the industry's plastic sales pitch phony baloney arms race that tries to make you feel insecure if you are using last year's model rod, reel line, waders.... My favorite combo on small streams is a 7' Cattanach Sir D with a Pflueger Progress (probably $1.50 when new) and a silk level E (4-wt) and a hand-tied 7' tapered leader. (Steve Weiss) That's what I've found too except I have fallen for silk mainly because of the wind qualities and because I tend to nymph a sinking tip's not a bad thing BUT it seems to me the lines made now are all so good even the non expensive ones work perfectly well. Last season I was fishing with a guide friend, he was using his new Lefty rod and Rio Nymph which is a nice line BTW and I gave him my reel with silk to cast. He did it reluctantly then said a bad word when he saw how far that line blasted out there much farther than the Rio but for all that likes his plastic. You have to keep cutting edge don't you regardless of what you see. Same thing with the rod. He breaks fish off all the time with those fast graphite rods mainly during the strike and uses 3x Rio flouro which is good stuff while I tend to use 4x and break them off close to hand but I don't use a net. He sees it's all in the softness of the rod but refuses to even consider a slower graphite rod. I forsake him using bamboo. Thou must upgrade! (Tony Young) But, BUT, if you're a real doctor, by which I mean a doctor of the sciences, rather than a pill pusher or (with difficulty) worse, you will know far better than most that if your fishing involves casting very short lengths of fly line, which stream fishing often does in my limited experience, then you need all the weight you can get at the front of the line to load the rod. We are on a canerod listserve here, and its very noticeable that most of you fish small streams, which is what cane rods in traditional form are supremely good at. In the example in question greenheart, preferably laminated greenheart, would be even better. The inherent weight of the material provides the inertia against which it is stressed. In the other extreme, curiously, which is when we want a shooting head to go as far as possible, we deploy the similar expedient of reversing the head so the thin bit is nearest to the reel. This business of reducing weight at the sharp end is the cause of many problems. Good old silkworm gut, for all its eccentricities had the one crucial material property none of its successors have, weight. With a floating line made of at least quasi-homogenous materials you cannot reduce the diameter without either reducing weight or density. Which is why we endure tips that sink or which will not even try and load the rod. Since the tip of any fly line can be as far away from any fish as we want it to be when it lands then it follows that its performance in turning over the leader and remaining floating need not be prejudiced by making it needlessly thin. So, if you find you need a #5 on small streams, just cut the silly tapered bit of a #4 and you will probably find it works a lot better. (Robin Haywood) Why on earth would you want to laminate greenheart, when round tapered solid greenheart rods have a terrific action the way they are? Do you have some particular glue which flexes and vibrates exceptionally enjoyably? I think Dr. Weiss is basically right: for short casts, the line doesn't really need to be tapered. A regular double-tapered line is just a level line for purposes of short distances anyway. Silk lines are cheap. In fact, they're usually free, the way I get them. I just buy old reels with silk lines on them, and fish those. I bought a new silk line a couple of times. They were ridiculously expensive. They were stiff, and had rough surfaces which made noise dragging though the guides. And I found they had turned into puddles of shellac over a winter, despite all the care and fuss they got. My conclusion was that silk lines were of unreliable quality, and the safe way to see if a silk line would hold up is to wait until its 50-100 years old and get it for free on an antique reel. When I was young, I had an old silk line, which was said to be a Cortland, that as camo'ed in color. It went from subtle dark brown to subtle dark green. It disappeared while I was at college. I'd buy another few examples of that line if I could. (David Zincavage) No, no, no no no! It's because you cannot tell whether a piece of Greenheart has shakes. These spring from stresses caused by the felling of the trees, some old Greenheart rodmakers insisted on being present at the tree-felling so they knew which bits to buy and which to avoid. If you make them, say, hexagonally laminated, you have less to worry about. And the kit is to hand. I don't think that silk lines are correctly treated. Many years ago I acquired one in a very advanced terminal condition. I chucked it into a pot of Carbon Tetrachloride (Wonderful stuff!) and went away. When I fished it out it was just silk, no ridiculous linseed oil (Which, due to its water absorption, is exceptionally silly stuff to use as a treatment). I dried it, in the open, don't use CCL4 in closed conditions. Next I applied a dressing of paraffin wax and dimethicone dissolved in CCL4, this was a proprietary dressing for flies at the time, and it used an awful lot of it. When I tried the line in anger it did two things: 1) Failed to go all soggy, like silk lines do after an hour or so, in fact it floated like a well doped up Wet cell 1, which was fine for what I wanted it for. 2) Broke on the second fish, I DID say it was well knackered, did I not? I've been trying to find another well shagged silk line for some years, anyone got one? (Robin Haywood) I've got the answer for you. Alexander Grant, in addition to being an angler, was a musician and a violinmaker. The way a violin works is the faceplate (made of spruce) vibrates sympathetically to the vibrations transmitted from the strings producing sound. A violinmaker planes that faceplate down with tiny little planes until it makes an A when tapped. Grant used a tuning fork the same way, comparing the note the piece of greenheart made when tapped to the note produced by the tuning fork to check the wood's condition and to match pieces. I should add, since violin makers use an A tuning fork, I'd start with A. Next, I see what note old-time Grant Vibration rods (usually made by Playfair of Aberdeen) make. (David Zincavage) If anyone said this, I apologize, I missed it. I find that my rods seem to handle a line size heavier with WF than a DT. Maybe it's just me, I'm still pretty new to this, not the world's best at casting either. I was a spin caster until age 60, but the old dog is gradually learning this new trick. (Neil Savage) Lines are defined by the weight of the first 30 feet. IF the question is one of seeing how the rod casts (not fishes) it's difficult to see why it could matter provided the line is within tolerances of the line weight and has a proper taper. A nice line feels great but the rod doesn't care. This was my original point re cheap lines to test rods. (Tony Young) Some of the newer more expensive lines have a slicker coating than the cheap lines. Some people define better as being able to cast further, and the new slick coatings sure do shoot further. When false casting there is a little back and forth movement of the guides over the line, and the slicker coatings have a lot less friction giving the line a lot different feel than the cheaper lines. And since you just paid a lot more for that line, that feel is going to be interpreted as "better". A cheap line with the newer coating technology on it will probably perform the same as an expensive line, but for now only the expensive lines have it. (Darryl Hayashida) That's right. They feel much nicer and that's important overall I guess especially if the client's test casting it. (Tony Young) The difference you are observing should be on longer casts. If you have more than the first 30 ft in the air. The total weight of the WF line will be less than the DT of the same line wt because you have the running line out of the tip top. The DT line is level past the front taper. One of the things that seems to me to be important is loop formation. I find that the Wulff TT lines seem to form a better loop with "slow" rods, e.g. bamboo, than either DT or WF lines. Of course as Olaf says, there's nothing like silk and it is difficult for me to describe the difference. (Doug Easton) Not to add superfluous info to the discussion you've started here. But I really like Airflow lines. They are on the expensive side, but I find that they are very soft lines, which suits me well. I know stiffer lines tend to turn over the loop better for long casts, but for working clear water and for roll casting and short puddle jumps, I really like a soft line. Plus, the lines seem to last a while. I haven't used a Cortland line for years, so can't really comment. However I have an SA Mastery line that is pretty nice. Very durable, which is good. Also shoots really well. I have that on my 5/6 weight graphite. I have had two Wulff TT lines in the last ten years. My experience with both lines is that they are fantastic to cast (a little light for close in work, so I would go up a line weight if you are not going to be making big casts). They offer nice control. However, both of my lines developed major cracking after two seasons. Lots of hair-fine cracks/checks for the first 20 to 30 feet of line. Granted, I fish the lines more than I clean them, but I still think a line ought to last more than two seasons. In any case, I also found that the tips would sink in swifter water. Not rushing river water, but fast riffles. That would lead to lots of drag on dries. I'm kinda hot/cold on Wulff lines. I also like DT lines for bamboo. I'm not pushing the rod for lots of line speed, so I haven't felt a need for WF lines. Having said that, if you do choose a weight forward line, I would go up one line weight (if your rod is rated for a #5, try a #6 WF line. (Jason Swan) Another really terrific soft line is the SA Ultra. In the buckskin color it also looks real nice on a bamboo rod. *G* (Dewey Hildebrand) Hey, color is very important in fly lines on bamboo rods. That's why I dye all my fly lines to a buckskin or browntone! This way you can have any line you want and not worry about that pink line or lime green on your nice cane rod. Looks are everything on the river :>) told you I wasn't as crazy as the rest of you. (Joe Arguello) I've been dying the last 10 yards of bright lines for years, there may be advantages, but there are no disadvantages, except perhaps when deep nymphing at range from the bank, for which a bung works better anyway. (Robin Haywood) I am not to sure that line colors should be selected to match the rod however in New Zealand most of the guides will tell overseas anglers they can use any colored line provided it is a shade between mid tan and dark tan! A guide friend of mine keeps 3-4 lines in his bag and the first thing he does with a client is replace the line on the client's reel if it is any sort of bright color. All of their experience , and mine, indicates that brightly colored lines will scare wild brown trout and that a dark tan or dull green line is the best. Also there are cold mix dies available at the local chemist to dye lines to the required color without affecting the coating. (Ian Kearney) If the line is within the fish's window it will see it as a black line on the surface, whatever color it is, obviously I refer to floating lines here. In shallow water it may not see it at all as the cast length will mean the actual line is outside its window. If the line is outside its window, however, it may see it, if it sees it at all, as a reflection of the bottom on pale lines, dark lines do not reflect, materially. But in shallow stream water it will still be at a too acute angle to be seen. You have to take surface disturbance into account as well, this will break up the image considerably. In deep water, over 10' or so, this is not a problem anyway, as there is not enough reflected light to create meaningful or frightening reflection from the line. Then there is the flashing in the air business, dark lines don't flash in the air. All in all, dark lines cause no problems at all, but pale lines might. When fishing Corrib, over depths not exceeding 10' at any time, I feel seriously handicapped with a pale line. These are wild brownies, which come up from the bottom to take the fly, sometimes, so they have a big window when they start off, if they see a large snake on the surface they may not start off. We find this to be bad. Rough conditions are probably favored by their locals simply because of this very fact, IE: the surface disturbance camouflages the line image on the surface. As the Irish like using Peach Cortlands, undyed. Rainbows tend to be higher in the water, in shoals, and they're stupider. When they are on the bottom we use sinking lines anyway. I speak here of stillwaters mainly, for I have more experience of stillwaters, but to use a bright line on my local small streams would have the same effect as throwing a stick in for Merlin the Labrador. (Robin Haywood) Only objects above the surface can be described as "in or out of" the trout's window of vision (which is the angle at which the angle of incidence is greater than the angle of reflection; light from the trout's side outside of that circle is reflected back down into the water, and hence the undersurface to the sides appears as a mirror). Objects in the film are directly visible since at least some small part is below the actual reflective under surface of the water and therefore can be seen from a much greater distance away. This might be why emergers that sit in the film are often taken much more readily than a bug or fly above the film (the trout has much longer to detect and become interested in said morsel). I personally am not convinced that pale lines contrasting against the mirror are a bad thing as opposed to a dark line against the mirror. (Chris Obuchowski) They are not contrasting against the mirror at all, and I never said they were. If they appear as visible to a fish at all then it will be as a reflection of the bottom, or anything that is underneath them. Which may be blackness, of course. And they will only be visible to any fish low enough in the water to have a field of vision outside its window. It is possible that that fish could be so low in the water, and surface disturbance so acute, that it will fail to notice, or if not fail to be alarmed or concerned, with any reflected image of the line. Since, as I pointed out, there are no known disadvantages to a dull line then all protagonism for bright lines seems to be Luddism. (Robin Haywood) Ya know I started this line color thread, I wasn't thinking about what the fish think, I was thinking about esthetics, more like what I like a fly line to look like on a bamboo rod. Told you I'm not as crazy as the rest of you. (Joe Arguello) I think I agree with Robin, just not sure which part. The problem with bright lines here is very much the flash in the air rather then on the water. The brownies in back country streams will not wait around for the fly to land and slowly move off when there is any false casting in their vicinity. A dark colored line , and minimal false casting by using a "powerful" taper like a Dickerson , may give you half a chance. (Ian Kearney) It's strange you should say that. When I read it through before sending I realized two things 1) It would have taken me a series of articles to do the subject justice 2) Most of you, because of where you fish, will only be concerned with the line flash problem. I'm a bit unhappy with the Dickerson bit, when I'm feeling idle, which is usually, and generally when I'm drifting sublimely around Corrib, and I don't want to false cast, I use my rather soft RW7 derived 7'9'' three piece. You would all call it a noodle, but it casts 10 yards without any false casting bar the obligatory roll into the air. The only Dickersonesque taper I have handy, which is not a particularly quick one, and was derived or inferred by me anyway, needs more work! (Robin Haywood) I mentioned in a post just now dying a yellow line. I had to. I KNOW those fish were seeing the line flash in the air. I could tell by the way they'd be in station happily feeding then bolt when I false cast too close. The newly brown line made all the difference but you should still keep the false casting to a bare minimum. (Tony Young) Try the Hook and Hackle hi floaters. Supposedly they are Cortland 444 peach lines that have been dyed a pleasing olive. 47 bucks, but they have been running a bunch of web specials the past two months so at certain times of the year (winter) you can get them for less. I bought a couple and like them a lot. The reason wasn't price, I wanted original 444 DT lines but never liked the peach color very much. (Jeff Schaeffer) I had a bright yellow line a while back and dyed it using plain old hot set cloths dye a few years ago. I was afraid the heat would wreck it but hey it was just $15 :-) In the end it was fine and the dye seems permanent. It went from canary yellow to deep brown. (Tony Young)
Got home and the line was stiff and stuck on the reel so I got online to an article by Reed Curry on restoring silk lines and ended up soaking it in a baking soda solution for a while. Cleaned and dried, I took it out to measure it and it's right at around 78 feet long. Does this sound about right or is it way short? I don't know. Does it take backing before putting it on the reel? It's sort of mahogany in color, and the dirty water was brown and filthy. It seems a little stiffer that a new store bought line, and as I said it is braided. In days of old, did nylon get the same treatment silk did??? (Ren Monllor) Read Reed Curry's web site a little more and it tells you how to tell a nylon line from a silk line. You burn just a bit of the end, and if it turns to ash it is a silk line, or if it turns black and beads up it is nylon. 78 feet is pretty close to full length, the longest one I have is 84 feet long. Was it tapered? A lot of the old lines were tapered on both ends. (Darryl Hayashida) It'll probably soften when it gets wet. It's really not that unusual to find old silk lines on older reels. If you go to Bob Lang's antique tackle show and auction, or buy old reels at Neil Freeman's auctions in Britain, you'll run across them all he time. (David Zincavage)
I have been using Wulff triangle taper lines and Wulff long belly lines and for my casting style and the fishing that I do, which is pretty much what you described, it works well for me. On my short 2 or 3 wt. rods I still like the old standard double taper though. (Gary Jones) I like the Cortland Sylk lines for my bamboo fishing. They seem to do very well for the rods I have made. I know there are others who do not like these lines. They are not as good a floater as the traditional lines, but I guess I appreciate the softness and flexibility of the Sylk lines. (Frank Paul)
In a nut shell: For modern silk lines, they should weigh out according to AFMTA standards, for old silk lines, they were measured by diameter, but most people totally will disregard the old diameter measurements and weigh the first 30 feet and use the AFMTA standard to label a line. (Pete Van Schaack) There's a conversion chart here. (Don Schneider)
There is the recipe of solvent with a gallon of warm water and one third box of baking soda, in order to get rid of the old coating. Could any one advise me on, How many ounce or gram is one box of baking soda? Probably, you can buy the box of soda in the same size at super market. (Max Satoh) All we have at home now is a 2 LB. (32 oz ) size, and I cannot be certain, but I think the size that Reed used was a 16 oz. In any event the proportions are not so critical that 16 oz to a gallon would be far off. If you are using it on old silk lines, it really works well. (Ralph Moon) Yes, 16 oz is the common size. In what amount and in what sort of container is baking soda sold in Japan? Just curious is all. There isn't a kitchen in the USA that hasn't had that same size Arm and Hammer box on the shelf. (Timothy Troester) The can I found in SWMBO kitchen is for 100 gram of content (about 3.5 oz.). The can size is about 1.3" dia and 3" tall. (Max Satoh) I realized the difference between baking powder and baking soda exactly. So called Baking Powder is the product which is the mixture of natural pure baking soda and some kind of acid, to make it easy to produce CO2 for inflating pancake by just adding water on it. Baking Soda, on the other hand, is natural material, usually sold as "Arm and Hammer" brand. I can buy the "Arm and Hammer" baking soda here too. (Max Satoh) Since baking powder has finally made it to the loft heights of being associated with bamboo rod making I thought I'd mention I believe baking powder was invented by Mrs Herreshoff mother of Nat Herreshoff the demi god yacht designer back in the days when the J Class reined and designer of every America's Cup America's Cup defender from 1893 through 1920 including Columbia which is possibly the most beautiful machine ever built IMHO. I know the life boat for Columbia is a classic I built one once. (Tony Young) Here (UK) the common size is about 4 oz and I find one box in a bucket of water (very scientific all this) works well for me. (Paul Blakley)
This is a topic that have not received a proper amount of attention. Today’s tapers are, IMHO, vastly superior to the old DT lines. I have, for many years, fished Cortland 444 DT and, for lake use, WF tapers. These lines are, I am sad to say, now pensioned off in favor of modern tapers from Loop, Teeny, Vision etc. Today’s multicolored lines are easy to compare to each other, and so are rods, when using same line of different rods. You simply pull out line until it changes color, and then throw them thing. I have, on many occasions, have had the chance of having flyfishermen trying out my rods, comparing them to their own Sage etc. rods. Using their own lines as described above, they can directly compare plastic and cane rods. Just a couple of weeks ago I brought along four of my rods, to be freely compared with modern high-priced, highly efficient rods. And now I am, finally, going to share the point of my ranting: Using modern lines on cane rods shows us clearly, that modern rods cast somewhat longer than cane. Modern rods needs more work to throw the line, meaning more blind casting. Within the range both types of rods throw, the cane rod deliver the fly with a more subtle landing, the presentation is simply more controlled. My favorite rod is a close interpretation of | |||
