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Slow down! There is no need to finish in a hurry, you do NOT really need that rod for that upcoming trip to wherever, and if you hurry you won't have a new rod to fish anyway. (James Piotrowski)
Divide the depth by .866 to get the width of the sides. (Robert Cristant)
I've built several rods from strips I got out of a pile of "boat rod" blanks. I bought a hand full from a used tackle store. He had hundreds but I passed them up. Wish I hadn't now. Not heat treating, no straightening, nothing but put them in the planing form and go to it. (Terry Kirkpatrick)
Here it is: h the height, w the width (angle side): w= hx 1.15470054 (Jean Claude Lebraud)
I thought about asking you this yesterday but wasn't sure if you were kidding or not. Is the 8 strippers just something you wanted to experiment with or do you have a market for them? First thing that crossed my mind was "all them extra %##$& nodes to fool with." What about spacing of them? Spiral? 4x4? Really curious and wonder what spurred you to do this? (Will Price) Yes it was just something I was curious about, and you are correct, the extra strips and nodes are PITA. I'm using 4x4 node spacing, I tried 2x but the rod looks like all nodes. They extra slits in the ferrules are fun too. Until the recent conversations about regular polygons i was going to target the better casters. I got the idea from watching Dave Roberts doing his thing..upshooting curve pile casts..stuff like that. I was hoping that the extra flats would help with the off angles. I have one complete and it is an interesting rod. I didn't hollow it so it is a little heavy. must be the extra glue. I'll hollow the next one. I'm not a proficient enough caster to put it through all the paces. But good enough to give it a test... It's like .022 across the flats near the tip so I had to grind the sides of the top guide feet so they wouldn't overlap the blank. and it took about 3 tries and about a week on the spread sheets to get the numbers right. Still have to fish them to see if there is an advantage. All in all it's another fly rod. Doesn't look as bad as I thought it would. (Jerry Foster) I made some experiments on 8 strip rod and put the strips inside-out to have extra power fibers "packaged" to the rod - see Power Fibers, Oct 2005. I did not find an advantage in comparison to hex. You may calculate easily any "mass-equivalent" 8 strip rod taper (or quad or penta) using the excel program here. (Tapani Salmi)
Yes, there is a geometrical problem. The half diameter is from apex to flat, when you put a glued up section in the form there is a flat down. Somewhere in the world there is a formula for converting the taper into form settings, but I don't have it anymore. Put one of your tips into the form and look at the end of the section and you will see what I am talking about. (John Channer) One big problem I see is if you try to use the form, you would have a the corner sticking up to sand. Interesting idea for a 12 sided rod. Lay them on the bench and sand or scrap them down similar to the process for making a 2 strip quad (except you are sanding the enamel outside). I put a piece of masking tape on the bench with the final measurements I want and plane away on the two strip quads. (Gordon Koppin) I guess there's a misunderstanding somewhere, when the blank sits down in the form a flat is up, not a corner. John, you're right. My guessed-at ratio wouldn't work. I just measured a piece of a blank at .156". When I opened the forms so that the top flat of the blank was flush with the top of the form, the dial indicator in the form at that point was .234". So the ratio looks like 1.5:1, not 2:1 as I'd thought. I'll try that on one of them and see how close I come. Now if this rain would quit, the stream levels drop by 50-80%, and the weather warm back up maybe we could go fishing instead of worrying about this stuff. (Henry Mitchell) Well, the 1.5:1 ratio worked, to numbers close enough to the target that misses are probably operator error in either the initial blank or in the modification. The 2:1 ratio I initially theorized wouldn't work for the reason John Channer said: measuring from flat to flat, not to an apex , which is what the indicator's point is measuring. I took the two reject tip sections from a PHY Midge-derived 5 weight and planed them down thusly: I set the planing forms (butt side) to numbers that were 1.5 times the target final dimensions for a Dickerson "6610", a 6611 hexrodded to a 3 weight. The butt end of the tip section is .160" with the form set at .240, the tip .056" with the form set at .084. The planing was done taking off thin shavings and rotating the blank 60 degrees after each pass. If it works I'll take the results to the Catskill Gathering , but I'm not putting my best corks on it and don't look for an agate stripper. Once again, snatching a workable embarrassment from the jaws of failure. (Henry Mitchell)
"We don't know much about Bamboo rods." Now we all know that bamboo rods cast differently than graphite. That's why we use them. My question is, how can we educate the FFF casting instructors about bamboo? They don't need to be an expert bamboo casting guru, but knowing the difference would be a help. I know that Harry Boyd is CCI and Capt. Pat Damico owns several bamboo rods, but I'm also certain that there are four or five times as many CCI's who've never touched a bamboo rod and may ever believe that bamboo isn't worth learning about. What to do? (Terry Kirkpatrick) About all you can do is keep using them, answer their questions when asked and let them try them out. I went fishing with a new fishing buddy a couple of nights ago, we got into some fish and noticed he kept watching me cast. Then he would watch me fight and land a fish. He started asking questions about how I got to be a "graceful caster" I replied it's the rod. As for fighting and landing fish, I never bent the rod double to protect the tippet like he so often does with graphite to make the rod work to protect it. Just fought the fish off the butt and landed them with authority. After a while and a short break I offered up the rod - a 7.5' 5wt, told him to slow down, let the rod do the work. He figured it out, bent the rod double to land a fish, I cringed, but it survived, a little coaching and he fought the next one, a 20" off the butt, brought it to net and smiled. Said, "I like this rod." Now I've got to build him one. (Pete Van Schaack) I know John Long is also a CCI. I spent an hour with him a while back and learned a lot. I think our best hope is for those of us in the bamboo community who know a CCI to let them try our rods, maybe even fish them a time or two and for the CCIs in this group to spread the gospel among their peers. (Neil Savage) What other bamboo nut certified instructors are out there? John Long, Gene Holland, Dennis Higham, Ken Cole, Troy Miller, Jimmy Chang, Dr. Sid Smith, Tony Austin, Denis Dunderdale, Doug Pierrelee, Bob Tabbert, David Diaz, Jim Bureau, Bret Reiter, Chris Raine, Bob Beanblossom..... I know I've missed a bunch. Who have I overlooked? (Harry Boyd) This is Reed Guice in Biloxi, Mississippi. I've been a CCI since 1996 (tested by Mel Krieger) and a 'bamboo nut' since 1990. Syd Smith is a good friend and neighbor just 10 miles down the road from me. I've never felt 'handicapped' using bamboo, and use it for all my freshwater fishing. I remember once when a friend and I went up to Slough Creek's second meadow on horseback. Another member of our party scoffed at our bamboo rods as we strung them up. Later, when he came up on me while I was fishing, he was amazed that I didn't have any trouble casting into the wind. Then I made a leisurely reach cast to extend my drift to get that big cutt right up against the bank in slack water. When I let him cast the rod, he became a believer. He was still an arrogant ass, but a believer nevertheless. I suggest that bamboo rods can be a wonderful teaching tool for beginning casters. You can feel the rod load and everything happens a little slower. It's the beginners that show up with the fastest $700 rod they can buy that have a hard time. "Use a heavier line to load it" should be stated "Use a slower rod." CCI's can help spread the gospel among their students. But, first we need to be willing to let them cast our bamboo. There's the rub! (Reed Guice) I know Al Crise (sp?) in Texas uses and loves a bamboo rod James Russel made for him. (John Dotson) Add Reed Guice and Jack Cummings to the list. Others? (Harry Boyd) David Roberts OREtroutbum@AOL.com Um, I've seen him bang the backing knot off a tiptop on one of Jerry's 4wt rods. On the grass. Nicest guy you'd want to meet, and the top Rogue River guide IMHO. (Leonard Baker) Dave Roberts in Oregon. One of the finest casters and fishers you could ever hope to meet. Don't hold it against him, but I count him a friend as well. Damn fine rower and guide too! (Mike Shay) Please add my name to the list. I took the certification test soon after it was established. Bamboo definitely works as a teaching tool for new casters. (Peter Jones) I am still trying to understand how one becomes "Certified" in Bamboo? I have never heard of such a thing. What did I miss? (Jimi Genzling) The certification is a certification with the FFF for casting instructors. It really doesn't have anything to do with bamboo, though you can use bamboo during the testing. (Todd Talsma) Wanna hear a little story? I was offered to be grandfathered in as a CCI upon payment of the fee. I turned the offer down because I believe that if I can't pass the certification I don't want it. Still have not passed it. I never was a good caster anyway despite having been introduced to Bsmboo fly rods 65 years ago. (Ralph Moon) Just curious... What is involved? I assume distance and accuracy tests of your own casting, but I would hope that there are "teacher" skills, too. Being good at something is not the same as being good at teaching that same thing. (Carl DiNardo) Please visit this FFF site for more information. And you are absolutely correct. Casting well and teaching are two different things. I'm very proud of a couple of my students who now cast better than I can. (Reed Guice) Initially the certification was centered around individual skills. Realizing the error, the FFF has stressed the teaching aspects very strongly for a long time now. As you say, there is much difference between being good at a skill and being able to teach it to others. (Ed (also CCI, for what it's worth) Berg) Great questions. My immediate reaction is that we must be diligent about putting bamboo rods in these guys hands. And those bamboo rods must be really, really good casting rods. I have won several fans for bamboo by putting my P101 in their hands. Graphite guys are not used to parabolic actions, so save those till after you have converted them to the virtues of bamboo. A few years ago I took a preparatory class for potential casting instructors. There were about a dozen of us in the class, and each brought his favorite rod. Of course I had a bamboo rod. One of the instructors, a really big shot with the FFF, asked me this question: "Why are you handicapping yourself with that rod? Bamboo is obviously inferior, and you want to make this as easy on yourself as possible, don't you?" I took him aside and explained a few things. First, I probably understood at least as much about rod design as he did (which wasn't much). Also, that I was wise enough not to "handicap" myself. And it went on for several minutes. But I did it privately, and humbly. The next day he tried out that 8015GS Dickerson taper, and fell in love with it. His apology was sincere and profuse. We also must become better casters ourselves. I practiced 20 minutes in the driveway yesterday evening, and another 20 minutes this morning.... well, this morning I tried out a rod I just finished and did more testing than practicing. Gene Holland is probably the best caster of bamboo I know. He practices daily, and can make any rod shine. Any rod, graphite, fiberglass, boron, bamboo, and probably even a willow switch. If more of us were as good as Gene, we would have less trouble winning casting instructors over. (Harry Boyd) Way to go Harry! I believe that the right Dickerson taper would make a believer out of 90% of the graphite crowd. Of course everyone on this list knows by now that I'm biased when it comes to Dickersons' tapers! I'm going to have to look at maybe building a Payne since so many on this list seem to like them so much. (Will Price) It really is a hoot to introduce an expert to bamboo. Harry hit on a couple critical points that make it a totally positive experience. Private humble conversations and a maker with decent casting skills are required. I've got to put more time in on the casting part. I had a unique opportunity to spend a few days on the Smith river with a well know fly fisherman a few weeks ago. Matt West and I were with a group of 11 on a 5 day float. Between the two of us we were carrying 6 bamboo rods. Everyone else was using high end graphite rods. It was 3 days before the bamboo topic came up. It started with the predictable "don't you break a lot of those rods?" question around the camp fire. That was all Matt and I needed to get the rods out. The gentleman that asked about the rods had not cast bamboo since he was a kid. And he's been in the fly fishing business longer than I've been alive. He spent the next hour casting 7 and 7.5’ 4 and 5wt rods and one 7’ 7wt. The rod making conversation went on for hours. His conclusion was that he didn't know bamboo rods could cast like that. And here's the kick in the butt, he said politely that he thought we were just a couple purist that couldn't cast when he saw us carrying bamboo the first day on the river. If he hadn't been such a nice guy, I might have been offended. But I think that speaks volumes about first impressions. We're probably perceived that way by many of our graphite carrying peers. He was genuinely impressed with the rods. He said he has a Ralph Moon original at home. We offered to fish it if he wasn't going to. (David Bolin) It's a hoot to introduce anyone to bamboo, but you have to get the rod in their hand and let them cast it or fish with it. I was at an outing with a bunch of guys and there was one young guy that was interested in bamboo but he fished a short, very fast graphite that he used on small streams. His argument was that bamboo was too heavy, his rod only weighs one ounce, and his bad shoulder won't let him cast a heavy rod like bamboo, and on and on. I explained to him that while the bamboo is somewhat heavier the amount of energy that is required to cast the rod is usually less than a stiff rod since the rod is doing the work rather than your arm. I took my 6 ft. 3 wt and dropped it out 30 ft. with an easy cast and then handed it to him. After getting him to slow down and enjoy casting rather than working at it, his response was simply WOW! Let him fish with the rod and he landed a big brown on it and to his surprise it didn't break. By the end of the day he wanted a new bamboo rod, and I thought back to first time that I picked up a bamboo rod and said WOW I want one of these! Then thought to myself, I bet that I could make one of these and I haven't ever regretted making that decision. (Gary Jones) I think the FFF has been good about promoting bamboo rods and rod making. I attended the 2005 FFF conclave in Livingston Montana. They had a week long bamboo rod building class (I attended, it was excellent). Jeff H had a big display of his bamboo collection. There were a number of rod makers in the vender area. Wayne Maca was there with his innovative hollow built rods. I had the pleasure of meeting Ralph Moon and his wife. I saw a lot of bamboo rods being tested on the lawn. Tom Morgan was around with his Hand Mill. This year they are doing another bamboo rod building class and I'm sure we will see other activities around bamboo rods during the conclave. With this type of involvement we are pretty much guaranteed at least some of the CCIs are seeing bamboo rods. (Will McMurrey)
Problem is.......I was using Hexrod and after talking to Harry yesterday I got the straight on the butt swell. HOWEVER. when prepping strips, I was looking at .141" as butt maximum size. Now I have butt strips of .150-.155 and can't get to the first swell of .165. Should I make another butt set of strips or just forget the swell? How will it affect the action? Will I notice it? Would it soften the action a little? (Barry Janzen) Just glue on some splints of power fiber through the grip and as far up the butt as you need extra thickness. Often you can fully disguise these with butt wraps, so no one would ever see them. They definitely won't compromise butt strength. (Paul Gruver) Why not simply build another rod for #3 and make the Payne 200 #4? (Jim Lowe) Or just make the strips into another mid section and make two more butts sections and I would have two Payne 200's with the two tips I have already made. (Barry Janzen) Yep, you could do that to and give the extra to a buddy. The 200 is great rod. Which taper are you using? Higham? (Jim Lowe)
I know that in my own limited rod making, I strive to achieve certain things. Some times when I look at rods made by rod makers that I'm told are "good", I think to myself " I'd strive to do better". Or I say "gee I couldn't ask $1500.00 for that." They fall below my expectations and it makes me wonder sometimes if my expectations are too high or if its even fair to judge other work by what I would expect from myself but have not achieved. So how do we measure "good"? Our own expectations? The general consensus of the community? Is there a certain level of craftsmanship or acceptable number or type of flaws that dictates what is " good". (Jim Lowe)
Does this person mean the rod itself isn't good, i.e. won't cast well, not well glued or otherwise, or does (s)he mean it isn't "pretty"? (Neil Savage) I think Jim is asking a good question here folks. What makes a rod "bad"? Here's my two cents worth. Remember, these are the characteristics of a good rod, not a great one. There are a thousand tiny details that distinguish a great rod from a good one. I'm certain I have skipped some things that are important. Can you add to the list? (Harry Boyd) A good rod is one that catches fish by itself. I handed my Sir D to a flyfishing novice friend to hold onto while I untangled a bird's nest that he put into his fly line. While he was holding my rod (he didn't think to actually fish it) the Prince nymph that I'd tied on dangled in the current. A nice brown gobbled the nymph up to the complete astonishment of my friend. He shouted something to the effect of "what the heck do I do now?" I told him the obvious: "Reel it in!!" The lucky dog caught the only fish of the afternoon. (Dennis Haftel) "are there minimum standards for consideration of a "good" rod?" Two hypothetical cases, regardless of tapers: 1. A person who loves to flyfish, loves bamboo rods, and wants to make rods for himself, but unfortunately is inexperienced with tools and has poor eye-hand skills. He makes a rod that has many imperfections but performs well enough to satisfy his needs and gives him pride in the accomplishment. 2. A person who is a talented craftsman who can make a near perfect rod but doesn't care about trying to produce that level of work and just gets by with rods that have many imperfections. I would rather congratulate person "1." and give him my respect and encouragement and help and say he has made a good rod. (Steve Weiss) This brings to mind when I showed my second rod to Ron Barch. He said something along these lines: I cant believe this is your second rod, It's a good fishing tool and well made. I would like to see #100. I don't know if I will ever get to 100 rods or 100 years. As you have it, good is a relative term and depends upon what rod you are talking about and who made it. Another thought, The large increase in the number of rodmakers who do not depend on rod making as a way to make a living has brought the standards of rod making to such a high level that anal retentive customers can pick and choose as they wish. The standards of today far exceed those in the days of classic cane. (Doug Easton) Well, I'm certainly not an authority on the subject. But, it's just gotta have the right MOJO you know it's just gotta feel right and do it for you. That's the magic no one rod is gonna please everyone and we don't all have the same taste. I have seen some very beautiful rods and some not so pretty ones, my personal style is pretty simple and basic, that's just what I like. Does it make it right, don't think so, but it's me. Are my rods perfect? I personally don't think I have ever built a perfect rod. Don't know that I ever will, not bad though. One thing I can say is that they have character. My son says "you don't even have to sign them, they have your name all over them, just your style." You want to make a good rod? If you are being true to yourself, you are well under way. They are perfect! Flaws and all. (Joe Arguello) I tell people yeah, my rods have defects! Birth marks are the little blems in the cane and the unavoidable marks. Then there's the birth defects, those are of my own making!! (David Dziadosz) Bill Waara said the most important part of a good bamboo rod is the taper. If your not happy when you get on the water with your bamboo rod then what's the point. Kinda hard to argue with that. I know when I hand a rod to perfect stranger who's never cast a bamboo rod before and he cast a beautiful loop that brings a smile to his face I'm happy. (Ken Paterson) I've struggled with the good rod bad rod question as a beginner. I get lost in the conversation if cosmetics and functionality are commingled. It seems to me that a rod shouldn't be put in the bad category because of cosmetics. It might be ugly, but not bad (that's most of my rods). There may be a few cosmetically perfect rods that belong in the bad category, but that's unlikely. A maker that perfects the cosmetics probably learned to make good functional rods first. Generalizations about a particular maker or their nationality serve no purpose here or in any other discussion as far as I'm concerned. This thread hasn't gone there yet. Hopefully it won't. We're all capable of making a bad rod if we get in a hurry or try to work around a mistake. Bamboo rod making brings an international melting pot of craftsman to the table with common interests in fish, fishing, the environment and relationships that last a lifetime. Oneupmanship has no place at that table. I think Bill Waara was spot on with the taper comment. But it's more than the taper that makes it a functional rod. It's having the right taper for the type of fishing and casting skill of the fisherman. But there are a few characteristics of a rod that may doom it to the closet forever. I don't have enough experience to know what all of them are, but here's a few that are on my list: 1. Uncontrollable tip bounce. 2. Heavy rods with no corresponding power 3. A grip that's too big or too small to fish comfortably 4. Sideways tip deflection in the casting stroke 5. Taking a set for no apparent reason (no fish on) 6. Reel seat hardware that won't fit the reel properly The absolute worst rod of all is the one that won't catch a fish when my buddies are slamming them with their graphite rods. (David Bolin) David you have scored 100% and no one else even comes close. A good rod is one that catches fish. The other aspects such as taper, tip bounce poor esthetics are all covered in that explanation. A rod that makes it difficult to catch fish is no good. If it is too heavy or too light if the grip is too large or too small, and all of those other things keep you from an enjoyable day's fishing ..bad rod (Ralph Moon) I have seen your rods, they are not "ugly". (Tony Spezio)
Are you sure that was Garrison? I haven't reread it in a long time, but a statement like that would have stuck in my mind. I got the distinct impression that Garrison would have been totally intolerant of any mistakes in his own work. (John Channer) I should have, of course, gone and reread Garrison before answering this. But life, I find, is a bit short for that sort of thing. If Garrison did say that then it was very uncharacteristic, and he was probably counting every minor imperfection in the varnish as one error. Eight thousandths off just above the handle he would have called disaster. Not even eight errors! (Robin Haywood) I met an Italian violin maker based in Sydney once who almost convinced me I should get into that game who had a very good reputation and worked on Strads that required work if one happened to be in the country at the time. I saw a doco made about three violin makers in Australia and he was one of them. He said on the doco that if there are say 150 different operations in the making of a violin you aim to get 150 but never get more than 135 exactly right. You never get the same 135 exactly right and you never get 150. He'd made who knows how many over his life but he reckoned he'd made a violin up to the finish stage which his wife does the finishing of every 10 days for his whole life and he was almost at retirement when the doco was made. (Tony Young) I believe Hoagy Carmichael said something to that effect in an interview ".....even a perfect rod might have 6-8 flaws..." The quote may be somewhere in George Black's book Casting a Spell. I agree. Of course, they are much more visible to us. (Darrol Groth) I thought maybe it was Glenn Brackett that said that. Maybe it was in Casting a Spell, or maybe it was in a podcast interview that I heard that. Then again, maybe several makers have said it and we are just chasing our tails. (Scott Bearden) You are correct UD - it was Hoagy Carmichael being quoted in Casting a Spell on page 232. '..."a good rod, a really good rod, is one where you make maybe nine mistakes."'(emphasis added) So much for perfection! (Jeff Inglis) Eight? Only eight? (Jeff Schaeffer)
Inquiring minds want to know. (John Channer) i would think that would depend what your intent was and to what the remark of another was referring to. If the intent was to be original and the remark was that you were the same as everyone elses. i would think that would be frustrating and disappointing. If your intent was to do a faithful reproduction then "clone" might be inaccurate i think the meaning would be that you had successfully met your goal. That said, if some s.o.b. is trying to bargain me down with insults i might hike the price and put him on a waiting list. Is there a good story here? (Timothy Troester) Just to set the record straight so that we all are working with around or avoiding the real definition of the term "clone." see below. As a Biologist, not necessarily as a rodmaker, I find the term misleading and don't particularly like extensions on terms that have real meaning. That being said it seems that the movies and popular culture have expanded the meaning of a perfectly good term so as to make cloning a "dirty word." Unfortunately it's easier to say than "based on a Payne 200 taper." From the point of view of "Rod DNA" which is another term which makes me cringe I guess that any copy of a Payne 201 taper made within the tolerances maintained by Jim Payne with comparable materials and workmanship could be a which also makes me cringe. (Doug Easton) BTW: I make real clones all the time and so do plant propagators. While I appreciate your position, everyone knows that clones, no matter how good the copy, will self-destruct blowing themselves, and all around them, up! I saw it last Sunday night on Futurama. Love ya all! (Mike Shay) Speaking for myself, if I could clone a Dickerson 8014 I'd be as happy as a clam. As it is, I just have to do my best. (Neil Savage)
Could have been the way the ferrule was set. Ferrules are the place where stress is the highest. Bamboo flexes metal doesn't. If you exceed bamboo's ability to flex you can get a clean break. Could also have been moisture got in there some time. I've had old rods snap at the ferrule, usually after several years of having a crack in the wraps and being stored in a moist warm place. Those are the only ideas that come to mind right now. (Terry Kirkpatrick)
How many rods (indicatively) do you think it takes to make before one can make a "fine" rod? Do you think the number is 10, 20, 50, 100 etc. What do you rodmakers think? Yes, I know what defines a "fine" rod is rather subjective. (Paul Blakley) Some of you make a fine rod right away, others of us never make a fine rod. (Bill Lamberson) Bill has no right to use the word 'us' in that sentence. He makes a fine rod. I hold the rights to making the ugliest rods in the US. (Rick Crenshaw) That's only cuz you use grits for glue. Yours ain't so ugly any more. And Bill does make a mighty fine rod. (Mark Wendt) Do mean cosmetically or functional perfect? Maybe both. Who is discriminating? Other makers or public? Because there a difference what. (Gary Nicholson) I would define a fine rod as one that is straight, no visible glue lines and one with flawless cosmetics and fine varnish work etc. (Paul Blakley) I think you could probably attain a good level of workmanship very early on in your rod making career today. Providing you have practical tool skill to start with. Its not coincidence most rod makers are engineers or wood workers of some sorts. There is a lot more information out there today which easily obtained just think about what goes on this site and a few others (its a lot easier now than when we first started out Paul for sure). Also if your been critical on your own rods. Your levels rise with each one. Just look at some of the rods on Clarks simply fantastic works of art. Really if your making just for pleasure your goals should be high. The pleasure is in the ride. Different if you make to sell (profit). You have to draw the line otherwise you would be working for £2 an hour and trying to sell your rods £3000. (Gary Nicholson) It's been a long time since I read Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Bob Pirsig demonstrated that the issue of Quality can make you crazy. But back to the question at hand; the cosmetics of some the rods made today far exceed those of Payne, Leonard, Dickerson and even Garrison. Should one aim to exceed that level of quality, or should one shoot to match the best of their rods? Should one feel a level of satisfaction for having maintained the classic standards of the craft? I admire the work of these makers because there is a certain Zen in a product with a balance of practicality efficiency and beauty. I think Marinaro was shooting for something special in his tapers, however as Bill points out in his book he didn't tolerate sloppy work or thinking either. But put one of his rods, an original Payne or Dickerson on the "Have you made any rods lately?" section of Clarks board I am sure you would get some nice comments but no raves. I guess Have answered my own question. We each have to continuously look for the Zen balance that feels right for us. Just like the rodmakers of old you will probably attract customers or admirers with the same sense of balance. A good read on this is George Black's book Casting a Spell. Wow - it's going to take a while to dig out of this. (Doug Easton) The (good ones anyway) old rods were made to cast great, look decent and sell for a profit, the ones on Clark's were made to cast great AND look great, you would have to ask those guys if they made a living wage doing it though. (John Channer) My point was: Set your own balance, strive to hit it consistently and see if It gets you where you want to go. My goal right now is to be proud to say I made it when another angler approaches me on stream and asks where I got it :) (Doug Easton) I noticed that one maker dished out some sarcasm over on the CFRF when you made that statement. What you've asked is really not definable for many reasons. It really depends on the person making the rod and how fast they get through the learning curve in addition to how willing they are to take the time to do it right! I have seen rods by makers who have between 50-100 rods under their belt that leave something to be desired cosmetically and I've seen rods that were absolutely stunning by makers with less than 10 rods under their belt. Just looking through the Made a new rod lately? thread on the Classic Fly Rod Forum shows that very clearly. I think it was Mats Oberg who said the last rod he showed there was his 10th and it's very nice looking. I can't think of his name right now but the fellow who shares a shop with Mats posted a nodeless rod that was mortised about a foot above the grip with the forward section of the rod blond and from the mortise back to the grip very darkly flamed. Clearly impeccable workmanship! I feel pretty sure Chris Carlin has passed the 100 rod mark or getting close to it but the point is his work is outstanding and has been for quite sometime(in other words not long after he started making rods it was evident that they were 1st class)!I believe, right or wrong, that in today’s world it depends on the makers willingness to DO IT RIGHT far more than how many rods they've made. (Will Price) It does matter how much effort you put into them. I build "fishin poles" for me & my son & I do not worry about rubbing them out or any such thing. I brush my rods by hand & they turn out OK. Would they be better if I rubbed them out like others? Maybe, but that is not my goal. They cast well & that is all I care about. Do I make a fine rod? To me, yes they do what I want. Others may say they suck or are ugly but it doesn't matter. I guess what I am trying to say with this is it is all in the beholder's eye. (Bret Reiter) I totally agree. The rods I make for myself are not half as nice as the rods I sell. I have one rod that I have ripped apart about four times. I call it my experiment. In a way it's pretty cool, because it's not for sale. I love to fish the rod because it casts great. (Funny story) However, one day I got caught out on the stream with it and I didn't have any of my nicer looking rods with me. These guys invited me up on their dock, on the AuSable, for a beer (they wanted to see the rod). I tried to explain that this was my personal rod and not what I sell. After two seconds, I realized how pathetic this sounded. Anyway, I just laughed it off. You are right, everyone makes them for different reasons. Just like some guys don't fish bamboo rods they just collect them. I'm about 50/50, because I fish some and collect some. I think part of the fun is looking at cool rods, as in collecting and museums etc... You know like looking at Jeff Hatton's book. Some nights I just sit and drool over some of those pictures. On the other hand, fishing them is cool, too. BTW, I finally started buying some tools to make better presentation cases. (the box type) I find it harder to make the case, rather than the rod. (Tony Miller) Well, you have seen me fishing rods that have the guides taped on with masking tape so I guess I make fishing poles. It is funny I threw a rod together for Grayrock & the Hex this year & it is definitely not my best work & people have drooled over it. Go figure!!!!!! I had guides in their long boats stopping me to look @ it. You never know. (Bret Reiter) The answer is simply, the number of rods a maker makes does not indicate the quality of his/or her rods or his/or her abilities. The quality of a rod should be defined by the actual rod in all aspects, looks, casting, and construction. It should not be defined by the age of the maker, number of rods they produce, number of rods sold, or price of rod. If we are judging the rods on how fine or nice they are, then the rods need to be judged, and not the makers. In addition, if we really want to judge a rod on how fine or nice it is, casting may actually be taken out of the equation. Casting is too subjective, and one man's tomato stick is another man's dream rod. Really, it should be judged on looks and quality of construction (casting left to the customer). Looks and quality are the only things that really separate rods. For example, we could both make a Dickerson 7012 taper I'm sure we are both good enough to get within a few thousands of Dickerson's taper. What will be the deciding factor then? Looks and construction. (Tony Miller) You could make two rods totally identical And they still will cast differently. (Gary Nicholson) Well, in theory they should cast the same if they are the same taper. However, you are right, bamboo is a natural material and maybe the difference from one culm to the next or the heat treating could make a slight difference. However, how would one person determine this? Casting is way too subjective. What might be a fine casting tool to me might be crap to you. I might call it a fine rod, but you might not. Now, on construction we all know that glue lines are bad, varnish can be dull with dust, not everyone can turn reels seat metal equally, gaps in windings, etc... These things are hard to dispute. They directly affect the look of the rod. (Tony Miller) Yes that's the word in theory. In my own view its got to be down to differences in material. Don't get me wrong its not massive, but there is definite differences no matter and yes you can feel it (Gary Nicholson) OK, so we are talking about fine rods here right? I am sure 99.9% of you on here have seen Al Medved's rods/ He makes one of the finest rods out there right? Even he can make a dog of a rod & I have seen @ least one that was. A couple of years ago @ Grayrock Al called me over to show me a rod. As usual it looked impeccable. He asked me to go cast it & give him my opinion of it. So I take it over to the casting area & I cast it for about 25-20 minutes. I take it back to him & he says to me "Well, what did you think?" So here I am standing here getting ready to tell Al this was one of the worst casting rods I have ever cast & I am feeling like crap telling him this. So Al says to me that is what he thought too & that he cannot figure out what was wrong with it. he asked me if I could pinpoint the problem & I tell him I cannot. Al thanked me for being honest & tells me that he appreciates my input. He said he was going to strip it down & destroy the blank. So it is all subjective. Anyone can build a dog of a rod no matter how long you have been building them. (Bret Reiter) Wuff, wuff to that! (Paul Blakley) Al's rods are the finest I have seen. (Tony Spezio) Yes, they are fine rods. He gave me 3 others to cast this year & I had to tell him that they were awesome rods. we discussed that other one & he said that he never did figure out why it was so bad. (Bret Reiter) I have seen guys who made their first rod & it was amazing & I have seen guys who have built 100 rods 7 the still don't get it. I also built flintlock guns & I see the same thing there. I go to a gun show in Kalamazoo Michigan that is for antique gun stuff 7 there are 2 guys who have set up for years & their guns look like square chunks of wood with a barrel 7 lock in it. So how many does it take? It depends on the individual. (Bret Reiter)
I made this rod in a 3 piece several years ago & I added a fighting butt to it. My fighting butt is removable so all the sections are the same length when the fighting butt is not on it. the fighting butt adds 3.5 inches to the butt section. (Bret Reiter)
Now I'm thinking it has to be the bamboo. Normally I use the same the same culm for both tip and butt sections but since this rod was for me I used some old strips, from the same culm, for the butt. I mention this because I noticed the Butt nodes have a spotted splotchy dark color - maybe bacteria?. The tip section isn't showing any stress and the color seems normal. Anyway this is the first rod I've broken and to think it took place where the bamboo measures .204. It happened both times while casting and without a heavy fish load, although the second time it happened was the day after catching several 18" wild browns. Well my plan is to build another Butt section but it would be interesting to know if this has happened to anyone else? (Doug Alexander) I’ve had one break on a roll cast once. After looking at it closely, I could see that I nicked the bamboo below the ferrule while filing down the serrated tabs. Wonder if this might be the case. (Brian Morrow) Another thought, how much bamboo did you have to take off for the ferrule station to fit? (Pete Van Schaack) Thanks for asking. I use my lathe with ferrule cutters so .204 bamboo cut for a size 13 ferrule, 13/64", measures after fitting .203. maybe .202. (Doug Alexander) What type of rod taper was it? This might have something to do with the breaks. (Bob Norwood) I was going to ask what taper it was also. Adding to that, was there a ferrule guide just below the ferrule?? Didn't Garrison mention that was a weak spot of the rod and that's why he wrapped (double wrapped) a guide at the ferrule?? I can't remember for sure, "Old Timer's Disease". (David Dziadosz) That shouldn't do it, I think you might be on the right track with a spline or two of bad bamboo. (Pete Van Schaack) So what is the acceptable amount of bamboo removal for cutting a ferrule station, - out of curiosity. (Brian Morrow) I measure the blank end and what ever size ferrule that indicates I go the next size up. I just basically want to be able to take off the corners of the blank to fit the ferrule. Some people think it adds more weight to the rod, I think it makes it a lot stronger. (Ken Paterson) That is a fairly common place for a rod to break, so I doubt if it was the bamboo. I asked this same question once on this list, and the answers seemed to boil down to mechanical damage. Primarily, damage from too tight a grip by your lathe chuck, although any damage to the bamboo could be at fault. (Ralph Moon) I think you just wanted to brag without seeming to about those two 18" browns. {:>) BTW I just broke a rod a few days ago just below the mid section female ferrule. While casting a 7 wt sink tip line. It was the second rod I ever made 4 years ago. A 3 piece 8 1/2’ 6 weight. I haven't really looked into it yet as I just got home from the trip this afternoon. However it broke clean across just at the mouth of the ferrule, No splinters, just a clean break under the thread. :>( Well that is the advantage to rolling your own. No cash out of pocket when something like this happens. I actually broke another rod in the same spot before I started into rodmaking, a Heddon #20 8 1/2' 3 piece 8 1/2 ft for 5-6 wt. (Larry Swearingen) Yeah, no cash out of pocket unless it was on a customers rod...LOL (Mike Shay) How dare you accuse me of being a braggart ... even though you just might be right! As it turns out I fished the Big Horn River in Montana Sept. 10 - 17 (although one of those days, I think it was the 13th, we took a road trip and fished the Tongue River -the River is all wade able, I came within 50 feet of a Moose and the fish are aggressive- in Wyoming for Cutthroat Trout). I was very pleased with our Big Horn results since we rented a boat and fished Zero to Thirteen in tough conditions and still managed great fish up to 22". We are committed dry fly guys and fished mostly top water and with a few streamers on cloudy days. Our best results were with Hoppers but we did enjoy success with occasional black caddis activity using our modified, with CDC. sparkling caddis pupa (fished dry using the new Harrop oil) and Hemingway caddis. Anyway my ferrule broke off both times the same way yours did, a clean break with no splinters just below the ferrule at the thread. I really think it was the bamboo and I started on a new butt section today. As I said this was my first break(s) and it came as a surprise but one list member reminded me that the greatest amount of stress is just below the female ferrule. Thanks again for your comments, I got a pretty good laugh! Your message is exactly how my friends talk to me - all the time. (Doug Alexander) Not to be a smart a$$ or anything but I have never figured out how people end up breaking rods. The only rod I have ever broken in almost 50 years of fishing was an Orvis Trident that I broke in 3 pieces over my knee. Is it because you stress the rod too much playing a fish? I know I see a lot of guys who bend a rod well past the 45 degree angle even as far as close to 90 degrees. I have caught Kings upwards to 60#s in Alaska on an 8 foot 6 weight Leonard bamboo & I did not even break that. Again I am just wondering how this is done? (Bret Reiter) Don't know about the bulk of them, but one thing that you see a lot of in this country, especially amongst graphite anglers, is "high-sticking"; in my opinion it is one of the most common causes of rod fracture here. I don't deliver much of a pep talk to the people who buy my rods, but I do warn them about high-sticking every time! (Peter McKean) What exactly do you call "High Sticking" ? (Larry Swearingen) Lifting the stick above the height of the crossbar, of course. (Larry Blan) I mean raising the rod up to a position where it is at least vertical, and often past vertical, while playing a fish. The Poms used to call it "Putting the wood to the fish" because the butt was pointed more or less at the fish But whatever you call it, it puts a lot of stress on the rod. (Peter McKean) Agreed. (Larry Swearingen) But the fact that just about all stress related breaks occur at the female ferrule and not at the male leads be to believe it's a design fault in most rods at the ferrule station and improving that and ferrule fitting will improve strength of your rods. (Ken Paterson) U-bends in rods are not good! (Timothy Troester) I have always kept my 5 wt. rod close to vertical, slight angle favoring the fish, which allows the rod to act as a shock absorber when protecting my 6X tippet ... especially with big trout. When the fish pushes for power and take a run, I allow my drag system to help my wrist, (which also acts as a buffer), to protect the rod. This is why I think a reel's drag systems is very important. I would never go past vertical pointing my rod butt at the fish. I've never seen this done and it occurs to me your asking for trouble. It might just be my imagination but I think bamboo tires a fish quicker than graphite. I have never broken a rod with a fish on. (Doug Alexander) Vertical puts too much pressure on the ferrule station of the rod & does not allow a good shock absorber. This is where see rods getting broken. (Bret Reiter) Exactly Peter, that is what I see all the time; thus a broken rod. (Bret Reiter) I've broken, or had break while I used them, 3 rods over the years. All while casting and all with some unusual casting gear on the end. #1 - A St. Croix 9’ 8 wt 4 piece that I used for Surf fly fishing in California. I used 200 gr. and 300 gr. shooting heads with running line. Not really what you'd really consider "Fly fishing" but it WAS a fly rod. One of the mids fractured longitudinally during a cast. St. Croix gave me a new section. #2 My 50 year old Heddon #20 8 1/2’ 2 tip 3 piece for 5-6 wt. Broke just below the mid female ferrule while nymphing on the Pit River in CA. IE: using two good sized split shot and a bobicator. That isn't really what you would consider a cast, just more like lobbing the whole rig or drifting it down the slot then flipping it back upstream. This technique really doesn't stress a rod very much. Unless you are using graphite and "ding" a section with the split shot. This was before I started making my own bamboo rods. Chris Raine of Dunsmuir Rod Company "fame" :>) was kind enough to shorten the mid section and reset the ferrule for me and in a short enough time that I could get back to fishing my bamboo. #3 the last one broken just a few days ago was the second rod that I made. In early 2004 so about 4 years old. It was a Payne 204 taper. A 8 1/2ft. 3pc 6wt. I'vew used this rod quite a bit but never on any really large fish. Maybe a few 16-18" Bass but no steelhead or salmon. Got the taper from the online Hexrod site. This taper is a "sort of Convex" taper. That is the sections are roughly "convex" between the ferrules. Know what I mean Vern? I was fishing a small National Forest lake in western Michigan from my float tube using a 7wt sink tip line. Certainly not the most "elegant" method but I was catching perch in the deeper water with it. In this case I can think, in retrospect, of a number of things that possibly contributed to the breakage: A) Using a 7wt Sink Tip line .. Not the best combination for smooth casts. False casting a Sink Tip line is "shocky" at best. The line I have is a short tip, roughly 10’ sinking section. A longer sinking section would probably be less stressful to cast. B) Casting from a Float Tube. Hard to keep the line up out of the water when you sit that low. Especially when you have that sink tip line whipping around. C) I remember having some trouble keeping my planing angles correct in my first few rods. I may have had to correct final angles by removing more of the enamel side than was good practice. If that was the case near the ferrule then I had more Pith and less Power fibers. That would possibly account for the type of break that happened. No splintered section, just a straight across break. Anyway, I'll probably get down to the shop today and look closer at the break. (Larry Swearingen) OK, the 1st one was a graphite I am assuming so it sounds like you may have ticked the section during a cast so that may account for that break. The 2nd rod it just sounds like you over stressed it with the setup you were using. Not the best combination for a bamboo rod in my mind. Chuck & duck is a pretty stressful way to fish any rod in my mind that is why I do not do it. The 3rd rod I am eager to see what you figure out, but I am thinking that the combination of what you said over stressed that rod as well. Sounds like more of a tuna rig to me. How much cane did you remove to set that ferrule too? (Bret Reiter) #1 was indeed a graphite and "ticked" is pretty polite terminology. I probably "Crashed it" a few times with the 200 grain shooting head in the surf. #2 was a 50 year old (at least) rod and the Heddon rods of that configuration, 8 1/2' 2f taper, have a bad reputation of breaking exactly in the same place. #3 was a rod I made. To numbers provided my John Channer and Dennis Higham on the on-line Hexrod site. Indeed I did cut into the power fibers quite a lot. Remember that was my second rod. The bamboo remnant measured just above the ferrule is 0.182" and the ferrule interior measures 0.0172". That's 5 thousandths off the power fibers each side not to mention the corners. The numbers called for a #11 ferrule there but the ferrule should probably have been a step down style with 12/64 for the female to 11/64 for the male. Also I feathered the tabs but did not crown them. I think I'll just salvage the parts off this rod. I was never happy with the cork grip style I put on it. Too small at the front. The mid and both tips have visible glue lines from the URAC that I used with Walnut Flour. The flour was not sifted well enough and had lumps apparently. That doesn't seem to have affected the strength of the bamboo though. Still, better to just put it to rest. Parts to maybe live in yet another rod. (Larry Swearingen) Interesting topic with some surprising replies. I was wondering if anyone has any experience breaking a bamboo ferruled rod. I would be interested in knowing at which point it fractured. (Larry Tusoni) I have tried to break one but did not have a lot of luck. The strength of a bamboo ferrule is very strong, the rod give way at the butt section first. Also my friend PB has tried to break one same conclusion. It's a seriously strong joint when constructed correctly. I personally believe its stronger than a metal ferrule joint. (Gary Nicholson) PB here and I can confirm everything Gary says. I have purposely tried to break a bamboo ferruled rod by SERIOUSLY over bending the rod and could not break the ferrule irrespective of how severe I bent it. Bamboo ferruled rods are good, the aesthetics of the joints are however questionable and customers who trust them are few and far between. (Paul Blakley) You've seen the bamboo ferrules I incorporate, with females built into the butt section, and (knock on bamboo) NONE have broken yet. One of my customers has caught numerous ten pound fish on that 7' 6", 4 wt. design... and it's still going strong. It seems the male portion, which on mine, is the smaller point, would break first. I'm still wanting to try the Italian version you introduced me to... very sleek looking idea. (Mike St. Clair) Poor casting technique is a great way to snap a rod just below the ferrule on the butt. Yes, I have a rod from years ago that is broken just there. I keep it as a memento. I learned to really cast, learned to really fish, and I don't break rods anymore. Anyone who says they never broke a rod probably lies about other things as well. Casting a rod is NOT like beating a rug. Even though there are many rodmakers out there with many rods under their belts that look like rug beaters when they cast. But their wraps are very nice. That's what counts, right? (Chris Raine) Speaking of lying fishermen, I just returned from a couple of days in salt water at Apalachicola FL, with a group of 10 fellows. I brought home the only trophy, a magnificent thing about 2 feet tall, with a fish on top of the vase or whatever it is. Unfortunately, it was not given for the biggest fish, nor even for the most fish, but for telling the biggest lie ! Remind me to tell it sometime. (Carey Mitchell) I would say you have earned bragging rights. (Timothy Troester) A dear friend of mine, who has since passed on gave me a small plaque once it is inscribed: "All fishermen are liars except you and me.......and I'm starting to worry about you!" (Joe Arguello) You calling me a liar? I have never broken a rod except for the one I broke over my knee. I still have every rod that I have ever owned since I was a kid & I will show you every one of them to prove the point. from spinning rods to fly rods. Poor casting & over exuberance playing fish is what breaks rods. (Bret Reiter) Poor casting & over exuberance playing fish is what breaks rods. There are other things that break rods too: Stupidity breaks rods. I have broken 2 but neither were from casting or landing a hawg fish. One was a gr***ite that I did not take apart and tried to get through my back door. The other was the tip of my favorite Sir D. To this day I do not know how I broke that tip. Just took it out of the rod bag, and there it was. I also saw another tip of a rod I made broken by someone else trying to yank a fly out of a tree. The heck of it was I gave it to him as a gift and it was his first time out with the rod. (Bill Bixler) Oh yeah, I did forget stupidity. (Bret Reiter) Understandable. Fish don’t realize they are in water, either. (Brian Creek)
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