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Here is a good one to get your sections dead straight every time. After glue up use a board to roll your section to get straight. In the butt section of your forms take the original dimension of the tip or butt and multiply it by 1.72. Now reset the form, this will give the proper taper for the blank tip or butt. Place the section in the form and proceed to compress it with your thumb to remove any twist. Place a heavy bar of steel. I use 2 1/4x2" CRS bar tape together and place it on top of the blank. I check it every 1/2 hour for a few hours and rotate and fine tune each flat. If any twist persist placement of quick grip clamps allow you to lock the proper position in place while it dries. It is actually like placing the blank in a mold. The section comes out twist and kink free! Every time. (Adam Vigil) To keep the Epon from sticking to everything, wipe it down with white vinegar right out of the binder. Roll a 1/2" thick piece of plywood over the blank several times to get it straight, apply pressure with my thumb along each flat to remove any twist. Place in preset form and give it a couple strip with the ole thumb again and place the bar on top and walk away. I check it every 30 minutes or so and flip in the form. With Epon you have several hours to work with it. If there are any persistent twist I place a quick clamp at one end of the blank and take the twist out, then place another clamp at the other end of the twist. And reset the bar on the rest of the blank. The whole procedure takes minutes to do. Credit for this idea goes to Carol Connor of Canada. (Adam Vigil)
Straighten it!! It's not too hard to do. Use the heat gun on the lowest setting. No gloves. Never get the section too hot to hold. Work on a small area. Get it warm, then over twist in the opposite direction and hold it till it cools. You should be able to accomplish the task in an hour or so. (Harry Boyd) If you can identify the beginning of the twist it will help you, too. Lay the blank down on a flat surface, and work your fingers down the topmost flat until the blank no longer jumps from side to side, or rocks, as it tries to twist. When you hit the spot it quits jumping, that's the beginning. Start heating from this spot, working your way out toward the end. Let's hope you don't have multiple twists. As Harry indicated, don't get carried away with the heat. It takes very little actual heat to do the job, but what you have to do is get it deep into the cane. This means you use low heat and it takes time. A good way to tell if it's too hot is to press it against your chin, below your lip. If it burns you then it's too hot. Of course, this is all academic, as I've never made a blank with a twist nor a bend. ;o) (Martin-Darrell) If you try to save it and screw it up, you are still ahead of the game. If you make a new section you have lost time if you could have straightened. Follow Harry's advice and go for it. (Ralph Moon) Before you get into heating and untwisting look to se if the twist is between the butt and the first guide, the stripping guide. if it is, the is no functional problem. if you decide to untwist, I would suggest you fire up your oven and when up to temperature I would place the blank in the oven for a couple of minutes and untwist it, gently. you need a buddy to help you. I have done it. I hate to do it. it won't take long in the oven for it to heat thru. good luck. (Timothy Troester)
Do you have enough extra length in your blank to cut off the 2" problem area and shift the section down 2"? I'm only on my second rod, so I leave 5" on each end to fudge with. I know the experts on the list leave only an inch or two, but I'm not that sure of myself yet. I don't think you can unglue it and get it back together. Is the entire section twisted, or just one spline out of position? If the section is twisted you may be able to warm it with a heat gun and twist it back. If a spline is twisted your best bet may be to replane another set of splines if you can't shift the section to get rid of the problem. I used URAC glue. (Kurt Clement) I think you will have major problems trying to unglue. The advise to slide the section up so the twist is in the cutoff section is probably the best. Remember that you will also lose about 3/8" at the tip for the end guide and you can often finish the butt slightly short inside the reel seat if necessary. You then have a choice, one tip for a heavier line, I use a different color silk on the end guide of the designate the heavier tip, or (heresy here) you can sand down the tip to get the original dimensions. (This makes very little difference provided you are not removing more then about .008 and many of the famous rodmakers got their tapers this way). (Ian Kearney) The tip is a goner. URAC will debond only after the cane is a crispy critter. (AJ Thramer) I would just use as much of the bottom part of the blank as I could. I usually leave two inches at either end of the blank. This allows me four inches of adjustment in cutting the blank to size. The finished size of the blank may allow you to cut it off below the problem area. If not, you have three options. Start over or fill any voids and sand it into shape as is or heat it up and try to rewrap it back together. The later is kind of risky and I would do it only as a last resort. The second option would be my choice if the rod was for me and not a customer. (Jim Harris) Lesson learned is to leave more space on the end and triple check after gluing but it is worse than I first reported. The problem starts at the -guess what- node that is located 5" from the intended end of the rod. I gave myself 2" to work with so this is really 7" down the rod and I don't have that much at the butt. On spline is twisted up for about 3 inches with the adjacent spline tucked under and then goes back into place. One suggestion was fill it in with glue and try to sand it out so it looks half way decent. It will be a gift to my assistant and she might use it 3 times a year. Your thoughts, will it be so brittle that it will break. I suppose I can throw a dozen casts and give her a one tip rod if the sucker doesn't make it or be a real professional and keep it myself and start over. (Dennis Aebersold) If this is a gift, I would not let it go that way. A gift is shown around and someone will comment on it. It could reflect on the type of work you do. It bothers you now, I think it will bother you more later if you let it go. I would either let the rod go with one tip or make up another tip section. Keep that bad tip for yourself. Make a butt section from leftovers to go with it. This can be a rod that you don't worry about. Just make it to fish. Not too much of an answer but that is what I would do. (Tony Spezio) Try sanding whatever flat surfaces you have without over sanding the bamboo surfaces that might protrude, then do the best you can on the tucked spline. Tape some guides on it and put it through the rigors. If the displacement isn't too big and glue filled the interior displacements adequately, I bet it will hold together. What are the diameters at this point? Your first guide will be in this general area, and that will help with strength integrity and maybe cover up the worst of it. (Chris McDowell) Come on guys. I have done this and I just bit the bullet and tossed the sucker away. It is just like my fly tying. I cannot ever stop finishing a fly even though I know it is a toss away. I've had a dozen god tyers tell me to unwind and start over or just to chuck the thing. (Ralph Moon) It's just one section, and not even finished! It's just a piece of bamboo, not neuro-surgery on your first-born child. This is called paying your dues. If you don't mess up once in a while, you aren't going to learn! (Steve Weiss) A true measure of skill in any craft is not weather one makes mistakes, but how gracefully one recovers from them. This includes throwing bad tip sections in the burn pile with a full twisting back flip. (Jim Harris) I would not let the tip go. Make a new one and be proud of your finished work. Those gift rods do get shown around and you want that good image reflected on you. Keep for yourself and do what I did with one that didn't go my why when done. I just the tip section that I didn't like cut out the bad area and turned the tip section into a UL Spinning Rod then gave the new rod away. The new spin rod looks great cast wonderful and I got big smiles from the new owner. (Robert Holder) I would suggest you sand it flat, fill any gaps with epoxy, and put a thread wrap on it. If possible, hide it under a guide. I think you will be OK functionally (Tom Smithwick)
I hang glued blanks in my drying cabinet. I have some plastic sleeving that works like Chinese handcuffs, and I slip this over the blank. I try to get the glued blanks so straight beforehand that I have to do little, if any, straightening afterwards. (Martin-Darrell) I recall a statement attributed to Wayne Cattanach "Straight is straight." There is no such thing as partly straight. Also, I have never really believed that hanging a weighted rod had any effect. Just my thoughts. I like to straighten the rod right out of the binder. and avoid any post gluing straightening. (Ralph Moon) I, too, do not believe that hanging a weight results in a straighter blank. The reason being that the strips need to slip against one another to be able to relieve the crooked condition. I tried encasing the blank full length with the mesh tubing, then hanging weights off the end. It didn't matter one whit the amount of weight I used. If there was a crook anywhere in the blank when you started, it was there when you finished. And, I agree: It's better to straighten in the string, and not later. (Martin-Darrell)
You obviously sanded into the power fibers. Try a steel block 3/4" X 1/2" x 2" long. Cut your sandpaper with a cheap pair of scissors. I think you will have better results with something like this. (John Long) You might want to try flat-filing the glue residue instead of sanding. I lay the blank flat on my bench and use a 6-inch mill bastard file. Hold the file parallel to the bench and at an angle of about 45 degrees to the length of the section. Now just move it lightly down the flat. Rotate one flat at a time. The glue flakes away because it is actually being cut off by the file rather than being rasped by sandpaper. You should not be able to measure a loss of cane at all if you wiped the section fairly clean after the glue-up. The biggest advantages of filing over sanding are that you can protect the corners perfectly, while also removing only the very thinnest film of material. And, speaking of protecting the corners, when you DO sand, try laying a full sheet of paper, back down, on your bench and pushing the rod section back and forth across it, as you would move a pool cue. Hold the section flat down with the finger and thumb of your other hand. I use only 400 grit paper for this. Easy does it, with long strokes. And be especially careful on the tip sections. (Bill Harms) Thanks for the idea of using a file to remove the glue. I'm going to try it. My practice has been to scrape and/or sand the enamel just before final planing as I want to get a flat surface rather than a arc to fit against the form. However after removing the string and sanding off the glue residue, I still see what looks like patches of enamel in random places along the flats. It almost looks like there was a slight hollow and therefore the enamel was not removed via sanding. Hence my choice of a 6" sanding block to keep from hollowing, which of course got me in trouble with an undersized blank. I guess the real question is: How do I get rid of the dull random patches, or better yet what causes them in the first place? Very rarely are them near a node. (Dennis Bertram) Just read your email again and noticed that you said you "quit sanding when the enamel was gone." I think it is a far better practice to scrape or file the enamel prior to planing away the last few thousandths of your strips. You don't want the final measurements of your strips to be based on some compensating factor that "allows" for the thickness of the enamel. Get rid of that stuff so that your final measurements will be dead on before you glue. Then wipe the excess glue from the string so that you will have only the thinnest film to file away later. (Bill Harms)
I use URAC glue and wet wipe as best I can after binding. After string removal, the best thing I have tried for scraping is the side (non-cutting edge) of my plane blade. It is also easy to touch up with a file and get a bit of a burl on the edge. I scrape until the enamel is almost gone then lightly sand with 220 grit then 400 grit using a small piece of steel for a sanding block. Haven't had any problems avoiding corners or oversanding. (John Long) What is the reason for leaving enamel on a rod, to be scraped or sanded off AFTER the rod has been built? This, I don't understand. (Bill Harms) Someone once told me that the enamel acts as a "release agent" to make removing the glue easier. I remove all enamel EXCEPT for a very thin haze before final planing. This I leave until after glue up. It also helps keep you from removing the power fibers when removing the glue. (Marty DeSapio)
I have a flat work table that I put the blank on and roll it, looking at the light coming under the blank. When I find a high spot I make an 'X' on the apex with a pencil or white china marker. I mark all the high spots. Then I heat the blank over a heat gun and straighten it by gently bending it until it is straight. I sight along the blank with good light and a dark background from each end to see how I'm doing. I cuss much and mightily. I burn my fingers and cuss with greater enthusiasm. My wife yells at me that I'm causing permanent harm to the children's psyche. I mumble that they should skip the intermediary steps and try to straighten this damn blank if she wants to see psyche damage. Then I go back to work. Marking. Heating. Straightening. Sighting. Cussing. Mumbling. Lots of mumbling... (Brian Creek) In my experience, this is an integral part of rodmaking, without which proper rods cannot be made. Don't reserve it for just straightening duties, as you're selling yourself short. Learning to effortlessly vituperate with a lengthy, invective stream of expletives adds to the ebb and flow of rodmaking, bringing with it a new dimensional experience. I'm out in the country, and yet each of the neighbors is well versed in the proper vocabulary for rodmaking. What a service I've performed for them! Rodmakers, we bring good things to life. (Martin-Darrell) I place my sections into the opened planning form and after making sure they are setting straight place socks full of bb shot on them for 24 hours. Then I treat the final tweaking with a stream of hot air and expletives. The wife goes up to the third floor and gets out the ear plugs and locks the doors. (Jim Tefft) Straightening starts with gluing. I have an old planing form that was overcut and is suitable only for planing salt water trolling rods, so its been dedicated to being a bench support for holding sections when sanding, scraping or GLUING. You can get the same effect by opening up your planing form. Right out of the binder I place the section in this form and wipe the section firmly with a damp rag to seat it snugly in place. I rotate the section one flat and wipe again, repeat, repeat again, until all six flats have been wiped. At this point the section should be fairly flat and straight in the form. I now pass my heat gun over the section a dozen times or so, rotating the section as I do this. This partially sets the glue up while the section is seated in the form, and the section is straight, rigid and firm enough to now transfer to my oven. The sections are now heat set at a @250 degrees F. setting allowed to cool to room temperature. The sections come out quite straight, but still need a little bit of "tweaking" to "perfect ??" straightness. (Ted Knott) You are certainly right. I couldn't find the weight I usually use to set binder tension once and just guessed at the tension. Was way to tight and ended up with almost a spiral rod. Howells' book has a pretty good discussion of gluing and straightening. (Brian Creek) For tip and thin mid section, clothes iron is a good straightener. Place a section on a flat wood bar and run a hot iron on six flats slowly. It works great especially for straightening twist. Japanese traditional method of straightening doglegs, "Tamegi" is also a neat tool. To make this, prepare a wood piece with 1"x1"x1' (length), and make a groove on it with 45 degree angle against the side of the wood, at about 2~3" apart to the end. Please see below picture. / / is the groove, though the angle of groove is opposite if you are right handed. (there is no reverse character on my keyboard). Depth of the groove is about a half of the wood width. ------------------- Width of the groove should hold the thickness of blanks. So you may need three width's of groove, for butt, mid and tip. For tip, the length of wood piece will do in your palm size. Heat the blank at a dogleg, put the part in a groove and make a lever action to unbend. For slow and long bend, heat the length of bend and move the lever as if you polish out the bend. You can do it by looking the blank through against the light of window. (Max Satoh) The very best way to ensure that your rods are straight is to use an epoxy glue. The epoxy will give you all the time you need to just about get the rod perfect before the rod sets up. I use Epon because it's easy to use but Nyatex also will give you all the time you'll need to get the blank straight. Actually Nyatex will give you even more time then the Epon although Epon will give you a couple of hours working time which should be plenty. With Epon you don't have to rebind or heat cure (some guys don't) and the straightening is easier then with Nyatex. I used URAC for the first dozen rods I made and it was pure hell. Since changing to Epon I feel like I died and went to heaven. As to the straightening of the blank, I use a toaster for heat and a 4 ft rule and my wrist watch for a sense of timing to straighten the blank. It's slightly slower but after ruining a blank with a heat gun I like the toaster much better. Cussin does help. (Jim Bureau) I am also using Epon and happy with it. I'm rebinding the blanks after wiping out the excess on the surface by vinegar about 6 to 8 hours after glue. Do you mean that you can straighten the blanks at the time of wiping out, and no need to rebind? I am threatened to try to straighten while no binding threads are holding the strips. If I can straighten the blank at that time and the blank will not delaminated, it is great. Could you give me a little more explanation? (Max Satoh) After I bind the blank I immediately clean the bound rod with vinegar. About forty five minutes to one hour later, after the blank has had time to get slightly set up I straighten the blank which is still in the binding string. After the straightening I hang the blank, still in the binding string, for about 12 hours. Then I remove the binding string and sand the remaining glue off the blank. The glue sands off easily but is slightly gummy. I usually do any final straightening a day or two later on as I'm sick of it all by this time, cussin included. (Jim Bureau) My heat gun flamed out in a most spectacular way, I guess it was just it's way of swearing but this being my second flame out I decided to try an alcohol lamp and I have to say I like it better for all straightening except for those sweeping curves and even then it's not that bad. (Tony Young) I scrape the blank and then straighten prior to sanding. First I take out the twists from the butt to the tip, then I mark the butt end of the section with an 'A', 'B' & 'C' on adjacent flats. I then straighten them from the butt to the tip in order. After that I let the section cool as I am doing the usually other 3 sections. Following the cooling off period (usually the blank but sometimes) I straighten the blank again to take out any kinks that were reintroduced or simply popped back due to insufficient heat. Done! Sometimes 5 minutes, sometimes 45 but usually 10 or 20 minutes will do it. If a section becomes too trying I will put it down and go on to the next. Since withdrawing from society to become a rodmaker I find I use the more colorful invectives in the English language only rarely. At that only a 'bloody damn thing' once in a while. (AJ Thramer)
I don't know if it is absolutely necessary, I do rebind. Here is my reason. I had a blank that I glued up with Epon. When cleaning it up after 20 hours of hanging I noticed two small glue lines. I re- bound the stick pretty tight and heat set. When I took the sticks out of the oven the glue lines were gone and there was a fine line of hard glue where the glue lines were. This tells me that the strips can move while heat setting. If for no other reason, I do rebind the sticks. (Tony Spezio) I was in a hurry and didn't rebind my last rod butt section. I did the usual 18 hours wait before scraping off the glue then I hug the rod in my heat tube for further drying. Well it now has a big bow in it that wasn't there when I glued it. From now on I will rebind. (Mark Dyba) I rebind as well... or rather I was rebinding, but now I don't bother to take the binding thread off until the Epon is cured. On my first use of Epon I left a small bit of leftover epoxy in the mixing cup. I noticed that after 24 hours the residue was still somewhat soft... I could dig my fingernail into the Epon. (Quite the experiment, don't you think?) I reasoned that if the Epon was still somewhat malleable, then the strips could shift around. I am as concerned for the bonding as I am for the straightness of the blank... (my first few rods were not very straight) so I now leave the sections bound up for about 4 days. I used to removed the thread after 24 hours, clean, and rebind. I don't do that anymore, I just wipe the blank with vinegar a couple times immediately after it's been glued and bound. I don't heat set the Epon, either. I wait ~4 days, then remove the thread then sand off the residue. (Eric Koehler) I use Nyatex, and do not rebind. However, I am pretty careful about when I take off the string. I check after exactly 24 hours, and leave it on if things don't feel "set". It the string comes off without difficulty, I then check every three hours or so until it is time. I have never had a delamination, and my rods are fished hard. Of course, I have to glue up very early on both a Saturday and Sunday morning for this to work. (Jeff Schaeffer) Sounds risky to me, cleaning a blank before the adhesive has cured. Seems like the pressure applied for scraping the excess glue off of the blank could push it out of shape. I don't rebind nor do I risk using vinegar to wipe off the excess. I'm too accident prone for that! I very carefully wipe off the excess right after binding. I mean very carefully! I'm probably the only one that can snap off the very tip end of a rod section (tip section), trying to wipe it down. I then lay it on a paper covered bench top and wipe it down clean with a clean soft cloth. I have very little trouble pulling the binding cord off, after heat setting the adhesive. There's very little left to sand off. And it seems to stay a lot straighter. (David Dziadosz) I can only speak to my own experience, so the one and only time that I did not rebind, despite being advised against it by Harry Boyd, the blank split at the seams in several places. Also, I have noticed, and it was Harry who first pointed it out to me, a weeping of the adhesive at the seams. Despite the blank having been cleaned of all excess adhesive, then rebound, I have noticed, on several occasions, traces of adhesive. No, I'll rebind, thank you. (Martin-Darrell)
I use a variety of techniques but when push comes to shove, I use a clothes iron on a flat work bench. (Rex Tutor) The only thing I really do, is hang from the tips, and hang weight off the bottom. Try and make sure your hang strings allow straight down hanging, & symmetrical pulling by the weight. (Jerry Andrews)
I reread this post from March 17, 2000, and decided to give it a try finally. Apparently Harry has been using this technique for years (assuming he still uses Nyatex) and passed this info to Dave Norling who at the time of his writing 3/17/ 2000 had tried it on four or five rods. I want to tell you it WORKS! While I did NOT follow directions and wipe after glue up, I did remove the string after about 24 hours, wipe down and rebind. After heat setting the Nyatex for the typical 3 hours at 235 degrees F the string simply peeled off and the remaining glue on the blank simply sanded off, no filing of string and glue. A single tip took me about 20 minutes to sand and oil! It usually takes me 8 hours to sand and tung oil a 2/2 rod blank! An overall savings of 7 hours! Labor! (Mike Shay) Though I only passed along what someone else told me, you're more than welcome. By the way, it works just as well with Epon as with Nyatex. I've used Epon for several years now. (Harry Boyd) This list is really something. After monitoring it for a couple years or so literally EVERYTHING I do has changed. The vinegar on the glue tip is a classic. How can you beat saving 6 or 7 hours of time on a rod. (Dave Norling) I do the Nyatex a little different but along the same lines. I bind and soft set using a hair dryer blowing over the blanks in a copper pipe for 30 minutes. Then I remove binding thread and scrape the blanks with a box scraper to get the extra Nyatex off. The sanding is then on the bamboo not the the rock hard Nyatex wondering where the tips are. Then I rebind and heat set in the regular way. I have used this method and the vinegar way for several years and it is light years ahead of just letting the Nyatex set up all the way in a big round glob. We in the Great Smoky Mountain area built a rod in a day several months ago and used this method for gluing There are only so many options when you want to build a rod in under 24 hours. (David Ray)
The temp only serves to drive the reaction, acting as a catalyst. The reaction will occur at normal temps, but besides taking longer, also results in a bond with less covalent bonding, thus rendering lesser strength to the bond. The recommended temp from Nyatex seems too hot to me, as the higher temps do cause dimensional shift in the cane. I've seen straight blanks go crooked, and gaps open along glue lines, for no other discernible reason other than the temp. Haven't had those problems since I lowered the temp, and I was using 200°, though doubtless the drying cabinet was hotter than that. I now prefer 185°F, and no problems. (Martin-Darrell) Here is where differing opinions come into play - the Nyatex glue is used for a lot of applications - the friend that lead me to it is a plastics manufacturer - he makes the window seals on most American cars - his use of the glue is to adhere the flocking (fussy stuff) onto plastic - and he does it on the run so to say - the light tunnel that he uses reaches some 300 degrees and cures the glue in the length of a 75' distance - but understand some issues - the glue is only insulated by the thickness of the flocking - So when I started using the glue on fly rods - I did some mathematics on the distance to core of the largest cross section of rod I figured that I would be using the glue on - .375 across the flats - using a U value similar to maple lumber - the values can be obtained from the Wisconsin lumber research lab - with this information at hand and using the drying time line from Bill at Nyatex - I came up with what I thought was a reasonable combination - that mixture of low enough heat not to damage the cane - one that was just high enough to cook out any lingering moisture and times long enough to heat to the core of the matrix - initially I tried samples of different time/temps - and what resulted was one that a) fit the lifestyle that I made rods - and b) gave me what I tested (as crude as that was) to yield the best results. The tests were - HDT - Heat Deflection Temperatures - and Apparent strength - the HDT can be tested with an oven - gradually increasing temperatures until glue failure - I saw this - air cure HDT 135 degrees - the 16 - 24 hour air with 3 hours 235 degrees - yielded a HDT 195 degrees - Strength wise - I saw what I felt was about a 25 % increase in yield - but remember - all tests were conducted with the lab equipment I had readily available in a tool kinda guy's basement - a vice and a Snap On Torque wrench with adaptations - the explanation I have for the increase in strength is that the molecules are 'Cross Linked" or aligned by the heat - as I illustrated with the magnet and iron filing example - so that explains that - now where did the 16 hour air drying come from - well - if I glue rod parts just before bedtime - it is about 16 hours by the time I would get home from work - and if I then put them in the oven - in about 3 hours I had time to settle in for the evening - spend time with the wife and kids - and then they would be ready to continue - See part Rocket Science - part connivence - Right or Wrong there is where it came from - Hey - remember to have fun with this stuff . . .(Wayne Cattanach) I have talked to Nyatex on a few occasions about this and they told me there that the 235 temp was fine for curing the glue for bamboo. I also was told by them that there IS NO shelf life problems with Nyatex as well. (Bret Reiter)
The stretcher seems like it would have the same effect as hanging a weight on the end of the blank while it dries. Seems like those that use the weight hanging method have had limited success. I have placed a blank section in my steel forms to dry, using a spring clamp at each 5” section. The blank comes out twist free but the bends remain. Is the stretcher really that much more effective than these other methods? (Kyle Druey) I've applied my dim powers of reasoning to the problem of getting a straight section out of glue-up, and here is what I've concluded. 1. INDIVIDUAL SPLINES MUST BE STRAIGHT TO BEGIN WITH. If you have a crooked spline, no amount of tension while the glue sets will make it straight once the tension is off. 2. What works for others might not work for me (or you). 3. Rolling the section with a hard rubber roller, ala Howell's book, is a good way to make the splines nest together. 4. A perfectly straight section laying on the bench may get bent just by picking it up to to hang it. It think is more of a problem for slow setting "slippery" glues like Epon than for tacky glues like Resorcinol. 5. Laying a straight section in the groove of your planing form and clamping/weighting it will work, but unless you have several planing forms you can only do one section at a time. My current solution, which is still evolving, is a horizontal "rack" made of a 2x4, a screen-door spring and a couple ball bearing swivels. After a real cursory hand untwisting & straightening, the rod section is "put on the rack" and stretched by the spring as it lays on the 2x4, and I check for twist then roll with the roller, rotate and roll some more, all under tension. I use resorcinol and have to work pretty fast. But its all done in 5 minutes and I'm on to the next section. (Frank Stetzer, Hexrod, Taper Archive, Rodmakers Archive) I was thinking the same thing Frank says in #1 about the splines needing to be straight going into the glue up process, since straightening bamboo whether in spline form or blank form requires heating then over-bending, to get it to rebound back to the point of straight. When planing or milling, a strip rides into the groove or template as the plane passes over or the roller guide directs its path into the cutters, so we may or may not worry about whether the sweeps in a strip are straight before glue up. It's optional. 2x2x2 or 3x3 node spacing might be advantageous in that sweeps are usually somewhat consistent in adjacently split strips so when bound together you might assume the pressures would work to offset each other and arrive somewhere in the area of a straighter blank. I know that doesn't always happen, but it sounds good in theory if you were wanting to promote 2x2x2 or 3x3 node spacing. Maybe this is one more reason so many rod companies used 3x3, to reduce the amount of final straightening. (Chris McDowell) I think this is more of a theory. I've not used other node spacings to confirm that 3x3 is advantageous for the reasons I stated. I'm just speculating. If the sweeps were not in plane with the enamel side of the strip but actually tailing off right or left, then 3x3 might actually lead to a twist in the blank rather than a straighter blank. I don't really know, I was just guessing. (Chris McDowell)
I bought a few chucks to see about making a rod "stretcher", never got around to it yet. Jo Jo and I did a lot of discussion on it. As far as hanging weights, I have had good and not so good results. I think when I had good results it was because I had the blank good and straight. When I had so so results is because I did not get the blank as straight as I thought. I did not use a chuck to hang the weight. Just made a loop with the binding cord that came off one side and up the other side so that equal weight would be on the tip. Put a cup hook in a plumbers lead stick and hang it in the loop. Give it a try, you have nothing to loose. (Tony Spezio) I think you'd need to have things reasonably straight to begin with else the splines would have to move too much to allow the blank to cure straight. The reason I thought the chuck may be better than a loop or string is it shouldn't develop a long graceful curve along the length as sometimes happens with loops. You're right though, I'll try it and see. (Tony Young) I've hung rod sections with 15 pounds on them, doesn't help a bit, and don't ask me why not, I haven't a clue. All logic points to the sections coming out straight as an arrow, but it doesn't work that way. (John Channer) As Tony Spezio said, he and I have discussed it all before, as have you and I, John. I've gone as high as 25 lb. on each section and it didn't make one whit of difference. I believe this is because the strips cannot slip against one another, being bound at both ends, or within a sleeve of some kind. (Martin-Darrell)
No financial interest, but when I sent the wrong payment with my last order they sent the stuff anyway with a politely worded request that I send them the balance due within a month. They seem like excellent folks to do business with. (Jeff Schaeffer)
Wow, Hal didn't warn me what a task it is to get the rod section up the inside of the rope. It took me 25 minutes and I had my wife helping me too. About every inch the tip end would get caught up in the nylon and I would have to back off , then I couldn't get the rope to slide down the rod shaft. It just stuck there like a thumb screw. I finally made it, but if that would have been a tip section I would have broken it four times over. (Mark Dyba) If this is the method with the braided poly rope that was in Best of the Planing Form, the article mentioned using a glass or graphite rod section to feed the tip into the rope. Just a thought. (John Channer)
For the second tip, instead of the foam, I set a second piece of angle iron on top, it allowed me to shine a light down between the two pieces to visualize the section to ensure straightness and placement, and used a thin, stainless ruler to gently push the section into the corner along it's length. I then used the spring clamps to apply pressure. I also did NOT use the wax paper. This tip is is straight as an arrow. The problem with the first tip, I think, given the resulting impression in the foam, was that I didn't first crease the wax paper but (stupidly) simply allowed to find it's own spot in the "V" when the pressure was applied. On the second tip, I didn't use the wax paper and could visualize the piece along it's entire length. It was also apparent that you need to align the top piece of angle iron with the tip of the rod so that there is no space between the ends to achieve equal pressure along the length of the section. Otherwise, if the tip of the rod, for example, is several inches down the iron, you get little pressure on the tip and it wasn't held fully down. It takes only a few seconds to set it in, visualize the placement and ensure the straightness. (David Smith)
But I don't think that's the case with the Epon, Nyatex, or Polyurethane glues I have used. I've looked quite a bit at sawed off bamboo sections from the over length butt ends. Under magnification the glue seams are obvious in cross section, even when no glue seam can be seen when looking at the rod section normally. ________________ ___ How large those seams are, or how much we should allow in setting our forms is another question. Might it depend on which glue we use? How much binding pressure? Heat set or not? Temperature and humidity? (Harry Boyd) It might be a matter of what glue you use, but still it seems to me no matter how thick a glue is if it isn't setting up as you bind it should get squeezed out and allow the bamboo to bamboo contact if your splines originally fit together without a gap. I also use polyurethane glue sometimes. Binding pressure might be the determining factor - hard to say since there is no way to measure how much binding pressure I use as compared to how much you use. I bind with monofilament fishing line and try to get a little stretch on the line as I bind. Maybe glue lines are in the eyes of the beholder... Let me ask this - when you go into a fly fishing store that sells bamboo rods do you see glue lines in the new bamboo rods? Orvis, Thomas & Thomas, Winston? (Darryl Hayashida)
It is just so easy to lose the sharp corners. I made myself a wooden jig/tool to hold sandpaper and cloth to make the job easier, and it worked pretty well. Much smaller and firmer and more rigid than the hard rubber sanding blocks. But I was at the local upholsterer's shop a couple of weeks ago, and there he had a bloody great box of leather offcuts that he was about to throw out; so I bummed a stack from him. I cut some to size to fit the jig, and mounted a piece pretty tight, with the nap side facing out. Then I just dipped the leather into whatever polishing compound I was using at the time (tung oil and Tripoli, Perfect-It, or Finesse-It) and went on with the polishing. I marked each strip with the compound used on it so as not to get them mixed up; I would reckon that I will reuse each piece dozens of times before it wears out, and the nap leather holds the compound really well. Just a thing that worked really well for me, and thought I'd share it. (Peter McKean)
I thought about using a piece of aluminum angle. Place a layer of waxed paper over the inside corner (groove) of the angle, place the glued and bound rod on the paper, cover with another piece of waxed paper, and then weight the rod down with just enough sand to hold it snugly in the corner of the aluminum angle. Not so much sand as to move the glued strips apart and create glue lines, just enough to hold the rod against the aluminum angle. This would only work perfectly with a straight taper (in which the diameter of the rod decreased at a constant rate). Would the error imparted by "forcing" the rod to dry against a straight taper be more noticeable than small kinks and curves in the rod? The error would probably be noticed on a swelled butt, but would it be noticeable in mids and tips? What it you held the drying rod against a planing form covered with waxed paper, so that the form reflected the true taper? Surely many of you have thought through this (discussed this?) before...? (Greg Peters) To straighten glued up sections, I GENTLY heat the bend or twist over a heat gun on LOW setting, continually rotating and moving the section to avoid a localized hot spot. I use a glove on one hand, and keep the other hand bare. I use my bare hand to gauge the temperature of the section – it should be hot, but not too hot to hold. While heating and checking the temp, I frequently gently bend or twist the section (depending on what I’m trying to accomplish) to attempt to correct the bend/twist. Tips take very little heat to bend, so be very careful. Butts take more, but usually less than you’d expect. (Chris Obuchowski) Chris has it right, but one thing that you should understand, is that the process I should be only over a very short length of the rod. That is straighten two or three inches, resight the section and move on a few more inches. Trying to straighten a long curve by see sawing the section over the whole length is very counter productive. It is a slow repeat slow process. I have taken over an hour to do just one section Practice!!!!! (Ralph Moon) The most useful post I ever saw on straightening tips was a while back, regarding using a clothes iron on the "cotton" setting. Do it on a flat surface (like a planing form) and it works miracles. (Chris Obuchowski) If I recall, Wayne Maca in Twin Bridges had some contraption for vacuum packing his blanks straight. I did not see it when I was in his shop, I was probably busy drinking the beers that we were cracking at 11 am. Anyway, What if you had a shallow groove in that sticky UHWD (sp?) plastic stuff. Bind the blank as usual. Vacuum seal the blank flat down into the groove. Is there a viable way to do this? I know nothing about vacuum sealing or its capabilities. Maybe Robert Kope saw the set up? (Bob Maulucci) Vacuum clamping is pretty straight forward. Just a heavy plastic bag and a vacuum source. There are a couple of sites out there with instructions for making your own bag. I don't have them bookmarked, but I have to believe a search would turn them up. I have used a vacuum to hold wood pieces while they are being worked, but I have never had occasion to need a vacuum clamp. (Larry Blan) We use vacuum pressing in the shop to glue up curved mill work, it is wonderful what one can do with this tool. I still have not made a rod yet, but can see the possibilities. Our pump came from Veneer Systems. It was quite expensive. To make rods as a hobby I don't think I would spend money on such a tool, lucky for me though I have one I can use when ever i want. Like Larry said, there are lots of sites about vacuum clamping. It can be done on the cheep. (Daniel Durocher) HVAC evacuating vacuum pumps can be picked up cheaply on Ebay. Most of the good ones are fairly expensive if you buy them new. Hmmm.... Lots of glues on the site that Daniel listed. PVA's, catalysed PVA's, Melamine, and a couple of Urea's. (Larry Blan) You recall correctly that Wayne used a vacuum to clamp his blanks, but I don't recall his setup either. Regardless, it is not a difficult thing to do. There are a number of methods used to hold blanks straight while they cure: I seem to recall that Winston hangs weights on them, a number of list members have clamped them to forms, Ray Gould's book has photos of a pretty slick binder developed by Jack Byrd that binds and holds rod sections straight inside lengths of hollow braided polypropylene rope under tension, and I'm sure a search of the archives would yield other methods as well. I prefer to simply bind the sections straight and hang them up to dry. (Robert Kope) What I do most of the times is protect my regular planing forms with masking tape, pressing it in the groove, and placing my rod in the forms. I don't use sand to hold them down, but masking tape over the rod and secures to the sides of the forms. Makes nice and straight rods most of the times. (Geert Poorteman) Lotsa guys increase the taper in their forms to accommodate the glued sections, and do just as you have suggested. I've never given it a serious try, but some guys swear by it. Perhaps it would be prudent to learn to straighten glued sections. Don't wear gloves, and never let the bamboo get too hot to hold. It's a little like splitting bamboo well. Once you learn how, you're amazed at how simple it really is. (Harry Boyd) What I do to help straighten sections after glue is hang with a weight. I tie a loop to each end on opposing flats and hang an old cast iron flat iron from the other end until the glue has dried. I also did this on my last rod for heat treating, the strips were perfectly straight and laid out flat in the planing forms. (Pete Van Schaack)
Also on my next glue up I've thought about laying the wet blank in my 1st form attempt. I thought that I could lay down a layer of Vaseline on the form then place a board on top of the blank. Any reason this would bugger anything? (Lee Orr) After glue up I lay my rod section in the form covered by wax paper. I put another layer of paper on top and cover the rod section with old stocking filled with a little sand. (Mark Dyba) I'm only speculating here, your idea sounds reasonable to me, but instead of Vaseline, why not wrap the blank in some sort of food grade plastic wrap. This way you would avoid a messy clean up and prevent Vaseline from contaminating your blank and making it hard to finish. (Doug Brooke) I agree, Vaseline can be hard to remove so it doesn't contaminate the finish. Messy stuff. I'd just lay plastic wrap on the form and put the blank on top. Open it up a bit so the blank fits down in a way to keep it straight side to side, and tape or weight it to keep it straight up and down. (Neil Savage) I seem to recall Wayne saying that if it is not straight it is not straight. It is sort of like being half pregnant. No way!! either you are or you are not. (Ralph Moon) Has anyone thought of a commercial venture for making fixtures to place the glued sections into for heat treating like the strip fixtures. (Dennis Aebersold) I made up a couple from 5' lengths of red oak. I ran them over a 60 degree router bit on a router table. Used them when I was gluing up with Elmer's. Now I use MD's Fixtures. These boards are easy enough to make. The first ones I made were a straight 60 degree groove. I made a set for a friend that had 60 degree tapered grooves. The router table was set up with a 10' 1X6 clamped to the top of the router table. In the center 1" from the edge of the 1X6 was a hole for the router bit. The fence sat against the 1X6. The board that the groove was to be cut had a 1/8" shim glued on one end and a 1/16" shim glued in the middle. This gives you the .001 per 1" taper. Using a feather board to hold the wood to be grooved against the fence, feed the wood through the router bit. The end with the 1/8" shim will be the shallow end and the other end will be the deep end. The router bit is set for the depth that you want. The taper is formed by the shims riding on top of the 1X6. If your groove board is wide enough, several grooves can be made by moving the fence away from the router bit. (Tony Spezio) For those of you who have visited some of the commercial shops; how do they straighten their rods? I can't imagine them taking the time to straighten each section by hand. (Mark Dyba) Winston hangs their glued up blanks in a drying cabinet. On the ends they place weights. (Joe Byrd) I guess that we must abide by the old adage that "straight is straight." However, I find that once you put the guides on it is easier to make the rods appear straighter than they really are. What glue are you using? (Bob Maulucci) I've used gorilla glue so far, just because it was readily available. My binder worked fine, but I don't have cradles (next project), and working time is not an issue. The straightness issue came after I rolled the blank on my work bench. I then tried straightening the blank by sighting down it, made it worse. The more I screwed with it the less progress I made. It became obvious that it wasn't an efficient or effective way to get the blank straight. Trying to straighten by hand just seems to move the bow to another part of the blank. Uniform pressure would have to be the way to go. (Lee Orr) It should work, but I usually put on a strip of masking tape. I push it in the 'V' between the forms to protect them against the glue. I also put strips of masking tape on the rod to hold it down firmly. Do not put too much tension on the tape you apply to hold the blank in the forms. I don't know but i think it might squeeze it out of shape. Put the tape from one upright side of the form over the rod till the other side of the form and tighten a bit. Make pretty straight blanks for me. I don't do much straightening. (Geert Poorteman)
I don't recall who suggested it, but tis a great idea. (Don Anderson) God bless George Barnes and the card scraper! (Darrol Groth)
When I tried bending a test section I made up using a heat gun, I could not create a permanent bend. I tried heating more and more until the epoxy finally gave up. Needless to say, I'm reluctant to try this approach on my rod. Any suggestions? Is 1/8 inch insignificant to performance and just an aesthetic issue? (Al Baldauski) If you continue to use epoxy on future rods, sooner or later you'll have to learn to straighten. Try less heat and longer exposures. Also, be sure to hold an inverse bend for several seconds, allowing the rod section to cool considerably before releasing. (Harry Boyd) Next time, don't use epoxy. Since you talk about "heat tempering" the epoxy, it sounds like you used Nyatex. Several years ago somebody did a test of heat resistance with several glues and Nyatex fared the worst. Unfortunately, the results of that test were posted to the list about 2 days after I ordered some Nyatex. My recollection is that Epon had pretty good heat resistance. I never opened my cans of epoxy and have only used resorcinol and polyurethane glues. I've never had a problem with glue failure because of heat straightening, and I have had to do some pretty serious straightening when I was binding by hand. (Robert Kope) It is also not a bad idea to iron the splines before gluing up. Having them straight to start with helps! (Geert Poorteman)
I have a long hard rubber sanding block that I use for sanding the flats, yes it came from Harbor Freight. The tip section is laid on a flat surface on one of the flats. With a spring clamp the butt end of the tip section is clamped to the flat surface (an oak board clamped to the work bench). This keeps the flat side from rolling. It will also show a twist if there is one. The sanding block with whatever grit you prefer, is passed on the flat only in one direction, that being from butt to tip. Be sure you pass over the tip and away from it before lifting the sanding block. This will keep you from catching the tip with the back of the block. When you are satisfied with that flat, turn the section to the next flat and next till the section is all sanded. (Tony Spezio) I had assumed the tip section is glued up and not a single strip. A single strip is done in the planing form. If you are trying to remove glue, scrape the flat with a single edge razor blade before sanding. Makes life a lot easier. (Tony Spezio) I assumed the tip to be glued up also. A glued up tip section will fit just fine in the butt strip side. Maybe you'd have to close it up a little. When you get that glued up section in your planing form and see how nice it fits in there and how nice it holds it for sanding you will like it. Especially down at the very tip you just hold the block parallel and if the tip is just barely protruding over the surface of the form you can't screw it up. (Dave Norling) Put the tip section in your planing form this holds it very precisely and makes it easier to keep the sanding block parallel to the dead flat surface of the planing form. It is really nice when you get up to the very top. (Dave Norling) I remove glue from the flats with a file. Then I use one of Bret Reiter's little hardwood sanding blocks. I also use various squinting and tongue protruding methods. (Timothy Troester) I think that Tim hit on the real secret. For my money, sanding tips is an exercise that is fraught with peril no matter how one approaches it. Those "various squinting and tongue protruding methods" are the real key to any of the methods I've seen posted (or tried). (Larry Blan) I always try to be careful in that area. ;^) (Brian Creek)
Rod section stored in 50 degree, dry workshop. (Scott Turner) You can take your strings off and do some scraping in 12 hours but that is pushing it. I usually wait 3 or 4 days. I hang mine in a cabinet with a light bulb. It stays 90+ degrees in the cabinet after a day or so i lightly run my hand down the blank and as they dry they make a nice singing sound. Keep the left overs in the bottom of the cup and you can watch it dry. After a couple of weeks it gets much harder. If you wait that long to scrape the glue is harder to get off. I would give it 2 or 3 days anyway. If you can't wait be gentle with the tips. Sometimes, I wait too long and sometimes i can't leave them alone. I have never ruin one. Keep a little tape wrapped at the top so a separation doesn't get started. They will zip apart. If this happens use some Elmer’s glue and bind it back by hand. It is possible someone has done some scientific study on resorcinol and has some conclusions to share. (Timothy Troester) Yeah, I agree Tim. Garrison book had a 24 hour drying time, but 3-4 days to cure fully. Interesting point about the glue drying so much that it's harder to take off than after a day or two. I'll be as gentle as a surgeon on the tip. (Scott Turner) You might want to check your instructions, 50 degrees seems to me to be too cool for resorcinol to set properly. (But maybe I misremembered.) (Neil Savage) You should wait at least a day. I would suggest you bring the sections into a warmer area than 50 degrees also. (Bill Taylor)
I was sanding my wraps between coats on rod's #2 & 3, and going through a lot of paper in the process. Being the frugal guy I am(cheap & cheaper as my wife refers to my father-in-law & myself, I was thinking there has to be a way not to burn through so much paper, as I was holding my popsicle stick wrapped with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I tried the wet sanding method on a couple wraps and it seemed as though the sandpaper was not as aggressive, and did not clog up either, lasting quite a bit longer than dry paper and smoothing out the finish without taking off as much Urethane. It worked so well, I tried the same method in between coats on the entire rod. So far the finish is turning out much better than on my first rod. I'm going to apply one last coat, sand with 1500 grit(s), then buff out. This may not be a "new" method, but the great thing about being new to this craft, this is a new discovery to me. If anyone else has done this, let me know what your preferred method is, or if there are any long term ill effects I'm not aware of. (Chris Hei)
Have you been able to find the drywall sanding screen in a format fine enough for rod use? If so, would you mind sharing your source? Seems the smallest screen I can find is about 180 grit, and that's pretty coarse for actually sanding bamboo. I find that anything more coarse than 400 will show up under a thin coat of varnish. I have used the drywall sanding screens to rough out cork grips with good results, though. (Harry Boyd) Thanks for the idea about shaping cork with the drywall sheets - I'll try it. As far as the "grit" of the sheets, the 180 is as fine as I have seen. The blanks were glued up with epon and had a pretty heavy residue. This is what I took off with the screen without actually taking any/little bamboo. I have gone back over the blanks with fine sandpaper to finish the work. The screening seemed to just peel off the glue without removing rod material. (Mike Givney)
It went amazingly well. I made a PHY Midge with only 1 tip (I messed up too much of my first culm learning to split to get 2 tips). This was supposed to be a practice rod, but so far it has turned out really nice. I can't find any glue lines, my dimensions came pretty close on the tip(.005 big) and almost dead on the butt (.001 over), and it's a ton straighter than I expected. The tip is ridiculously small. If I hadn't made it myself I would never believe that it's six strips put together. Unbelievable. Or as my wife would say "nice". As far as straightness goes, I know Wayne says that straight is straight, but I really wish someone would come and tell me if my sections are straight. I'm 99.99% positive that they aren't twisted, and by looking at them I can't see any bends. However, if I put my butt section on the top of my cast iron table saw I can see I spot of light 1/16"+ or so near about 6 inches from the butt when I roll it. Should I work to get this out? If so how? I glued this first rod up with poly glue because I could get it locally. Can I heat poly glue to straighten? With a heat gun? How hot? Anyway thanks for listening. My ferrules, cork, and guides should arrive tomorrow so I'll be on to the next challenge and probably posting more questions along the way. (Aaron Gaffney) Congratulations on your progress on your first rod. To answer your question about straightness, just remember it is a relative term. Sight down your blank, and if it appears straight to you, then it probably is. Also roll the blank on a flat surface, and observe it. Bends and/or kinks will show up readily. (Joe Byrd) Congratulations. I have watched this list and others for several years and cannot recall anyone announcing their desire to start building rods, and then getting as far as you have so quickly. Especially impressive since you built your own forms. My limited experience with PU glues is that although the glue appears dry, it will continue to cure for about a week. If you are going to straighten any irregularities now is the time to do it. And I would fix the one thing you have found. It will become much harder if not impossible after the glue completely cures. I use Gorilla Glue, which I believe will take more heat than ProBond. In talking with the people at Gorilla they indicated that it will let go at about 350 degrees. I have used ProBond once and did start a delaminating with much less heat than that. I suspect that either glue will let go at lower temperatures before it fully cures. Still, you can put reasonable heat to it at present and get it straightened without delaminating it. Regarding twists. Put your blank on a flat surface and pin it down at one end with a finger. Then, put another finger on the blank about 2' away and push down with it, simultaneously releasing the other finger. If the blank has a twist, it will roll slightly. Gradually move your fingers closer together to determine exactly where the twist is located. When you have pinpointed the locations heat it and twist it straight, hold until it cools and retest. Using this procedure I have found that twists are not all that difficult to remove. In fact, I find them easier than bends. I use a heat gun to do this work. If you hold the blank further from rather | |||
