I've said this before, but because we've been talking tapers I'll ask it in a different light. 

When designing a rod (and I've designed some weird ones) I've noticed that a faster taper (higher average slope) tends to feel heavier.  A slower taper feels lighter.   Over a day's fishing this can make a difference. 

Does anyone include this in their taper designs?  (Terry Kirkpatrick)

Isn't a faster taper by definition going to have more material, and therefore be heavier?  I suppose when I begin to think the rod is going to feel too heavy, I start thinking about hollow building ... but that's probably not a good addition to this discussion at this point.  (Harry Boyd)

I think it's a valid addition. We are talking about making rods here.

Do we have a group of rods we think are fast?  (Jerry Foster)

Harry, I keep hearing this "Weight" thing and it makes me wonder.  I mean what's the real difference in weight lets say between a 9 foot and an 8 foot approximately for example?  Would it be 4 ounces maybe 5?  I don't know, I'm just guessing.  So I'm just thinking just how much weight difference would there be between a 8 foot 5 wt that's medium action and then making the same rod but with a completely fast action --  2 ounces??   If I'm guessing somewhat even accurately is 2 or 3 ounces really worth mentioning - is it all about tiring ones arm by the end of the day?  Otherwise couldn't one just take some weight like you say "Hollowing" the butt section to save weight??  I know it's probably got something to do with leverages and length of leverage arm in relation to the weight throughout the length but is it really a big deal?    Seems people seem to worry about a few ounces and I'm just not sure why??

If my arm got tired by the end of the day - I'd just say - AH great it was a GREAT workout.  (John Silveira)

I think you made your own point.  Weight at the end of a lever is much more substantial.

When I hung around the golf pro shop as a kid, there was a standing challenge.  Hold a golf club (wooden head driver, steel shaft) by the grip.  Extend your arm to the side so the club is parallel to the ground.  Now hold it there.  Don't let it drop below parallel.  Keep it there for five minutes.  Five full minutes.  If you can do that, you win the $100 bill.

Rest that same club on your shoulder and you can carry 14 of them for five hours.  (Harry Boyd)

What I'm talking about is an experience I had about two years ago.  I'd been rebuilding a series of 7 foot 3p 3 and 4 wt rods.  I was having problems getting an action I liked.  (Several reasons for this, I'm sure but that's another topic.)  So I built (based on the average slope of the taper) a fairly fast rod.   I took it out and fished it, and it was, indeed, fast, almost graphite fast.   I fished it for several hours and found that my wrist was tired.  I couldn't figure out why.  The rod didn't weigh much more than the slower rods of the same length.  

Then it dawned on me.   Starting all that mass (as little as it is but strung out over 7 foot) and stopping it at the end of each cast was a challenge. 

I took the rod home and sanded a little  bamboo  (.002"~.004"  -- HORRORS!) off each section to give it a little flex (I know, I know, I have sinned).  The next time I fished it, the rod felt much lighter to my cast.  Now I'd guess I took far less than one ounce off that rod, so it was the increased flex that made the difference.  (Terry Kirkpatrick)

With fast rods you also need to take into account that, when bent to the quarter circle which no fly rod should exceed when casting, the effective length is greater than with a softer rod. This means the center of mass is nearer the tip and thus the mass has greater leverage on your casting hand. The faster a rod is the more difficult timing becomes, everything is happening faster, this can be fatiguing. I'm not saying, of course, that weight is not important, I've spent my life droning on about the importance of lightweight structures for rods, bicycles, reels, cars, blondes.

I shouldn't worry about shaving a rod down a bit, there was hardly a classic rodmaker who didn't, the scrap rate would have been horrible otherwise and you can always make another to the new dimensions if it worries you.  In fact, I often think that the best way to modify an action experimentally is to do just that. Obviously, you can't add any mass anywhere, but its sure quicker than making up half a dozen prototypes.

Good job I was born in the 20th century, I'd have been burnt at the stake as a heretic in the tenth.

I used to make a few bob fining down composite tips with wet'n dry some years ago, everyone said they would break, but they never did. You would be amazed how uneven the outsides of some of these blanks were before I got at them, I even filed a few of them.  You have to be patient, and I wish I had digital calipers then, even if they did eat batteries, good job I have a cheap source. Couldn’t afford dial calipers you see, but I'm going to get some now, fed up with the batteries going half way through a test.

I don't like very fast tapers, never have, although there are some here, for special purposes, if I were interested in tournament casting I should have to relent, I suppose, but some of the more extreme cane tournament rods barely lasted the tournament, they were in overstress nearly all the time.  (Robin Haywood)

Not to be contrary, but I've noticed the opposite. A "fast" rod feels lighter, with proportionately more wood in the butt, and a "slow" rod heavier, with more wood in the tip.

I build nearly all rods hollow (fluted ALA Winston on an MHM), so yes I design and build rods with weight  in mind  (increase the area 3% to compensate for the hollowing).  (Chris Obuchowski)

I've been trying to figure out what it is about a rod that makes it "feel" right with my casting style. I have a graphite rod I built on a Dan Craft 8' 9" 3-piece, 6 wt. Signature IV blank. The action is described as medium-fast. For those of you using the Common Cents System, the ERN is 7.01 and AA 63.

When I cast this rod with my normal, crappy stroke, I can feel the line all the way through the cast and shoot nice, tight loops. The closest thing I can use to describe the feel is like throwing a high-quality dart. This rod is far and beyond the one I am most accurate with. I've tried over lining my cane rods, thinking maybe it was the line weight, but that just resulted in an overloaded and over flexed mess. Maybe it's the length? That is the longest rod I own, cane or otherwise, so don't have anything to compare it to.

Your thoughts, opinions or guesses are much appreciated.  (Rob Holland)

I love the taste of bananas. I can’t get an orange that tastes like bananas, no matter how hard I try. Get it?  (Ren Monllor)

I agree, it's a tough, if not impossible comparison. I'm just trying to understand the design characteristic that gives the rod the feel.  (Rob Holland)

I can suggest a book.

It’s called The Technology of Fly Rods by Don Phillips

It’s well written and explains a lot about the techie stuff behind the rod. He talks about bamboo, glass and graphite.

I’ve been reading and rereading sections until they gel and make sense.

I think it’s a pretty good book and I recommend it.  (Ren Monllor)

I am going to assume some facts  here that are really not in evidence, and am admitting in advance that I could be 100% wrong. I'm also a casting instructor, so consider the source. From what you have said, I'm going to guess that you are not stopping the rod crisply, or in the right places on your front and back casts. You are then compensating for that by applying too much power with your wrist to get some distance. Most likely, what you want is a rod with a very fast taper, and therefore a stiff butt to absorb the excess power without shocking the line or tailing the loop.

I have nothing against fast rods, and enjoy casting them at times, but why doom yourself to being able to cast only one type of rod? A lot of the fun of this is to be able to have a variety of rods for different conditions, moods, etc. The best thing you could do for yourself is get to a qualified instructor and get your casting stroke adjusted. If that is not possible in your area, get a copy of Joan Wulff's video and study her methods. I particularly recommend the trick she uses for teaching people how to stop the rod. She lays a couple poles on the ground in a "V" of about 45° or slightly larger. Then the caster stands at the point of the "V" and side casts, stopping the rod at the poles. The caster instantly sees the line forming a tight, smooth loop. I have tried a lot of things over the years to teach the concept of stopping the rod, but nothing works as well of this.

I don't know of a single golfer who has not taken a lesson, or even many lessons to improve their swing. How come we fly fishers are so reluctant? I guess we have the excuse that you can be a great fisherman without casting very well, but does anyone think that their enjoyment of the sport would decrease if their casting improved?

Rob, please do not think I'm picking on you personally. This is a generalized rant, or maybe just my turn on the soapbox, which I now relinquish to others. Off to the piggery.   (Tom Smithwick)

If fly fishermen could win millions of dollars by sweetening their cast like golfers can by perfecting their swing, there wouldn't be enough casting instructors available to handle the requests for help!!! LOL....Me thinks the piggery is going to get crowded.  (Will Price)

What line are you using with the DanCraft graphite rod?  (Harry Boyd)

The line is Hook & Hackle Hi-Floater 6 wt. WF. I've read it is the same as Cortland 444. It's the only 6 wt. line I have, so haven't been able to compare it with another. I have the same line in a 3 wt. WF, but it doesn't have the same feel on my lighter rods.  (Rob Holland)

The H&H is the Cortland 444 peach line, only it's green for Hook & Hackle sales. Kind of like all the bamboo rod companies of the past making "trade rods" to be sold under different names.  (Will Price)

What kind of fishing are you using the rods for?  (Stephen Dugmore)

This rod doesn't get much use, as it's a touch heavy for most of my fishing. Plus, since I cast my first cane rod a few years ago, the plastic tends to stay at home. Most of the time I've used it on what we consider medium rivers here in the south. Browns up to a couple of pounds, casts out to 50+ feet.  (Rob Holland)

A medium fast graphite rod is more like a very fast bamboo rod.  If you’re experimenting with line sizes, I’d think you’d want to underline your bamboo rod to see if that makes it feel similar.  Recently, I measured the deflection of a 7’6” medium graphite rod and compared it to my favorite 7’6” cane rod on a program I have that will graph deflection for a given set of conditions.  To make the bamboo rod behave similar to the graphite I had to use 2 line wts less.  (Al Baldauski)

This makes sense to me as if I wanted to slow a rod I thought to be fast for what I was doing,  I’d use 1 to 2 line sizes up.  (Ren Monllor)

I tried your underlining suggestion this afternoon. I tried a 3 wt. WF on a Leonard 39L copy and I had trouble even feeling the line until I got to about 35'. Really had to fight to get line out to about 20'. Granted, I am a crappy caster. It's hard to break 35 years of bait casting habits! I don't have a 6 wt. cane rod to try it on. That would be a better comparison.

Thanks for your suggestion and information. I've been messing with CCS data from my graphite rods and comparing it to Garrison stress curves. Haven't gotten far enough along to determine any correlations. I'm not trying to design a cane rod to be like graphite, only trying to understand the design characteristic of the plastic rods so that I MIGHT be able to design that characteristic into the cane.  (Rob Holland)

There is no easy answer to that one.  I think you will just have to get hold of many cane rods and cast them. As you know carbon is stiffer and a lot faster per diameter. You can design a faster rod yourself and hollow build it.  Go for a rise over 300.  I would not overline a cane rod You can stress the tips on a fast action rod.  (Gary Nicholson)

Thanks for the suggestions. Not a lot of cane casters in my fishing group (one, me!), so I don't get the opportunity to cast anything but mine. I'm going to make it to a rod gathering someday. I think that would be an eye opener.  (Rob Holland)

Well, I have a rod that never "felt right" until I put a heavier reel on it.  If you have an assortment of reels, you might try different ones.  Just a thought.  (Neil Savage)

Was it tip heavy Neil?  (Gary Nicholson)

I don't think so... It was a Young Perfectionist taper, just didn't feel right to me.  I never really liked it until I put a different reel on it.  Since, I've tried swapping my various reels around to find the best feel on all my rods.  (Neil Savage)

I just read the comments on rod feel and using different reels. Yesterday I was on the river with a rod I fished last year and I really liked the way it performed last year, but it just didn't feel like it was the same rod. I just realized that I was using a different reel. One actually that is a bit heavier than I used on it last year. I'm going to put the old reel back on it next trip.  (Floyd Burkett)

Did the reel also have a different line? I mean by that made by a different manufacturer? For instance, I know that the gram weight of Cortland lines and SA lines, for instance, are on opposite ends of the range.  (Timothy Troester)

It was the exact same line took it off the old reel and put it on the new one. So the only difference was the weight of the reel itself. The new reel is 8 1/2 ounces, and the old reel is 6 1/2 ounces. So I guess the 2 ounces added to the butt made a significant difference. I'll know the next time I go because I'm putting the old reel back on it for the next trip. (Floyd Burkett)

It might be of interest, but you are stating the same thing that Vince Marinaro postulated in "The Ring of the Rise."  The lighter the reel, the better the rod feels.  Primarily because of the reduction of weight that allows a faster tip action.   Funny though that there is always someone to act as the Devil's advocate.  Anybody remember the old Pflueger reels that had a hole in the center column so that BB"s could be added to increase the weight.  Then I  remember a "guru" who said weight behind the casting hand is of little concern.  Hold a broom horizontally with the hand just in front of the bristles.  Then try it with the bristles in front of you hand.  Which can you hold longest.

Isn't it odd that there are pros and cons on so much of rod theory?  (Ralph Moon)