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I am looking at the possibility of making a Spey casting (double handed) rod in the 12’ #9 area. I have the Hoergaard tapers but was wondering if there were any others out there that people would care to recommend? As I see it at present, actually making such a rod does not present particular problems as the length and section sizes are almost identical to the coarse rods I make. However I have no experience of two handed rods or Salmon fishing in general if it comes to that so I am potentially going out on a limb. (Gary Marshall) My personal opinion, which many of the older authorities shared, is that greenheart is the best rod material for Spey casting. It's true that greenheart rods are a bit heavier than split cane, but greenheart is far more limber and has a significantly greater capacity to store energy. A greenheart rod can put more oomph into the Spey cast, and it can cope easily with the changes of direction without being unduly stressed. A 14' greenheart rod typically uses a 7 wt. line. The rod I most commonly use for Spey casting is a 14' Grant Vibration made by Playfair of Aberdeen. It can pick up and lay out an entire 7 wt. line, and the forward cast will pull backing from the reel. My wife can Spey cast just about an entire fly line with that rod. I have some photos somewhere of Karen throwing a line right across the Madeleine, standing in the river with trees and bank right behind her. It is advisable to use spliced joints on greenheart rods. Greenheart is a strong, water-resistant wood, but I understand that it tends to break a ferrule joints. Greenheart rods were simply turned on a lathe. I understand that the wood dust is toxic to breathe, and one needs to wear a mask when working with it. The best split cane rods for Spey casting were generally believed to be those made by Jim Payne. Payne double-built his larger two-handed rods specifically to take the stress of Spey casting, which is hard on cane rods. My own experience persuades me that Payne rods really are better for Spey casting than other split cane models. An exception is probably those spliced split cane models made by Sharpe and/or Farlow a few decades ago. They were obviously made for it. I suppose the old steel-centered Hardy's were as well, but the actions of older British split cane rods are not typically much admired today. (David Zincavage) greenheart is far more limber and has a significantly greater capacity to store energy. That statement makes no sense from a physics standpoint. If it's far more limber then it takes far less energy to flex it therefore it stores, when flexed, much LESS Energy. (Larry Swearingen) That's not necessarily true. Greenheart is much more dense than cane. And while, protortionally it will flex more than cane, its extra mass will require MORE energy to load, and consequently STORE more energy as well. It just so happens that much of the loading force will come from the weight of the greenheart itself, so it will feel like it takes less work from the caster. Same reason bamboo rods cast more easily than graphite. (Mark Shamburg) For any given line speed the amount of energy you have to put into the total system must be constant, mustn't it. The only worm hole is internal damping, which simply means that energy may be wasted to heat more with one material. But which? Slow action rods always feel easier to cast than fast ones, whatever the material used. If you make up a really fast cane rod you will see what I mean, it will probably not outlive you though. (Robin Haywood) The energy at a given velocity is given by: E = (1/2) x MASS x (VELOCITY) squared What you say is true if the rod or casting system has the same MASS. Hope this helps. (Frank Paul) The energy is coming from my arm and being transmitted to the rod, so the mass must be that of the whole moving body. Even if we treat this simply the difference between cane and greenheart is well within experimental error. What controls, mainly, how much energy we can get into the line is how fast the rod taper is, the material is hardly important, as for mere casting it would be best if the rod did not bend at all subject to our abilities being up to it! What controls how far the string goes is mainly a combination of the velocity when you let and how far off the water it starts at. This is why I always wonder why people wade out into the water as a matter of habit in order to cast further. (Robin Haywood) Yet, it's true. Greenheart rods wobble in the hand. They flex, a little, at least, on the slightest provocation like a whip. But, they do store more energy, too. I suppose they have more ultimate flexibility than cane. Perhaps modulus is the measure of ability to store energy? I'd have to look it up. I tried the newfangled graphite rods out in SF at the Golden Gate Club. There are people who can cast well with them, but I can tell you that they aren't all that much lighter than cane or even greenheart, and they are a lot more work to cast. One lightly loads one's greenheart rod by comparison. When I first tried casting the graphite rod, the line wouldn't straighten out. I found you really needed to muscle those things. Of course, like all plastic rods, they have no feel, no life. (David Zincavage) I've got several carbon rods with loads of feel, life, character, all the things people think is the sole preserve of cane. It's just a question of design. Remember, there are no crap materials, just crap applications. Some rods are better in cane, some in carbon, in the middle you can use both, but you only have to look at the rods that all you guys make to see that you like cane because it suits the rods you like for the fishing you do. I don't expect to see any contributions from Lou Tabory here any more than I do the dyed in the wool Gaelic short line merchants and the distance freaks from Graffham or Rutland. (Robin Haywood) The Sharps rods are really good taper but you will have to make an allowance because as you know the original were impregnated. I realised this when I first started out making the Lee Wulf Ultimate. The first one I made when tested against the originals had a completely different action The impregnated process used by Sharps stiffens the rod by 1 to 1.5 up a line weight. I found this out from Mike Brooks I think there is some spey tapers in Ray Gould's books But I cannot remember if there the Sharps ones or not. (Gary Nicholson) I've always thought that Orvis's impregnation must have something to do with the inferior action of nearly all Orvis rods. But, it's also true, Sharpe's impregnated rods tend to have good actions, despite, or maybe because of, impregnation. (David Zincavage) Don't overlook the 14 footer designed by Vincent Marinaro. It's in the book by Harms and Whittle. I still have trouble believing that someone who only designed one could come up with something that great. I consider it the best spey rod I ever cast, regardless of material. However, I have never managed to get my hands on a Grant, or any greenheart rod for that matter. One of these days... (Tom Smithwick) I own a Horgaard 12'6" and I am not impressed with the action. The rod has a powerful butt, but lacks stiffness in the mid section. I also have two Sharpes and they are good casters. (Morten Lovstad) That's interesting, thanks for that. The 12 ft taper I looked at in Hexrod initially looked to have an OK stress curve but in truth it is overall a more a progressive action rather than say the Parabolic Bill Waara that is stiffer through the middle. The Hoergaard rod has a stiff butt but then a step transition to the mid section which is softer, the tip looks OK. There seems to be a consensus that the Sharpes two handers were good casting rods. If any one has one around 12 feet for 9/10 I would be interested to examine the numbers or indeed anything near that that performs well. (Gary Marshall) Should have pointed out here the original Sharps Lee Wulf rod which was impregnated Was like new and still had the shrink wrap on the handle and the original price tag. I would like say it has probably never fished with. Just recently I also used a Sharps 7.6 Scottie of C Harrison. Again, it was in fantastic condition. I was again maybe the first one to cast the rod looking at the condition of it. OK, I did not have a rod to compare it to, but it was fast /like a medium action graphite. Gary, I have no doubt to question Mike Brooks. He probably knows more about impregnated rods than anyone else I know. (Gary Nicholson) Being heavier for a given stiffness than any other normally used material, possibly excepting solid fiberglass, what it actually has is greater inherent momentum and a much slower rate of recovery from flexing. The Grant Vibrations were made of it, all 21' of them. I can't for a minute think that Alexander Grant would be using anything but the very latest Loomis or Sage were he both alive and unruptured today. I also wonder why the things were called Vibrations when vibrating is the least likely quality that they would have exhibited! The other truth is that, by and large, when we are talking about distance casting then the better the caster the faster will be the taper of his preferred rod. If he also wants to use it for catching fish he will have to compromise! As casting and fish playing are the two normal uses for a fishing rod we can thus see that all designs are a balance of these two, somewhat opposing, functions. I've not used a greenheart rod for many years but a friend had a sea trout/light salmon Hardy which he converted to a carp rod, it was extremely effective! But only at relatively short ranges, mainly because it wouldn't easily cast great distances but handled fish as beautifully as a cane rod, perhaps better. (Robin Haywood) They were called Vibration rods, because Alexander Grant was also a violin -maker and he applied the technique used to measure the thickness of the violin's faceplate and back to his greenheart rods. He compared the note the wood made when struck to the note produced by a particular tuning fork. I'd think the opposite would be true: that fast rods (being easier to cast) are preferable for the novice. There is certainly a limit to how fast (stiff) a rod you want, however. Eventually they turn into broomsticks. Ever cast a Hardy Koh-i-nor? There is a fundamental difference between wooden and synthetic rods. The latter have no feel, no life to them, and make casting more remote and mechanical, and I would argue, more difficult. It's like the difference between wool or cotton clothing and polyester. It is characteristic of greenheart rods (properly matched with line) to cast farther and with more precision than cane. I have several of those cheap greenheart 9' and 10' one-hand fly rods. I fished with one once all day. It was like using a rifle. I could place a dry fly on a dime at 50'. Casting beneath overhanging branches on the far side was child's play. But after some hours of all this, I did feel like I was using a telephone pole. The rod was heavy. (David Zincavage)
Here are some of my questions: I see in the taper values from RodDNA that the taper stops at the 115 inch mark and the action length is 119”. Does this mean the taper stops and the rod has a 30” handle? That seems pretty long for a handle. Is double building a necessity for the butt section? If I want to use a spliced connection instead of nickel silver ferrules, do I need to adjust the taper to a 1 piece? What guide spacing would I use and what size guides? What type and size line do I need to cast this beast? (Greg Reeves) You want a bigger rod than 12' 6". Real Spey rods start at 14'. In the old days, they used 20'-ers all the time on big water. Personally, I recommend Greenheart over split cane for spey casting. Greenheart rods also ought to be a bit simpler to produce since you just turn them down (wearing a protective mask, as Greenheart is an evergreen whose dust is toxic). Spliced jonts are essential though. John Enright, at least, was able to produce some relatively light two piece Greenheart rods. I have one. (David Zincavage) Greenheart is Chlorocardium rodiei (family Lauraceae), a tree native to Guyana in northern South America. Chlorocardium rodiei (Greenheart) is a member of the family Lauraceae. It is the sole species of the genus Chlorocardium, formerly classified in either of the genera Nectandra or Ocotea, as Nectandra rodiei or Ocotea rodiei. Other local names include sipiri, bebeeru and bibiru. It is native to northern South America, chiefly in Guyana (formerly British Guiana). It is an evergreen tree growing to 15-30 m tall with a trunk diameter of 35-60 cm. The leaves are opposite, simple, with an entire margin. The fruit is a drupe containing a single seed. The wood is extremely hard and strong, so hard that it cannot be worked with standard tools. Being extremely durable in marine conditions, Greenheart is used extensively in the building of docks and in similar applications and was an early choice for fly fishing rods. Greenheart is listed on the IUCN Red list (1996) as Vulnerable. Between 15 and 28% of the original population has been harvested to date. Harvesting as a commercial timber began in the late 1700s, but most of the harvesting has only taken place since the introduction of chainsaws in 1967. The Fram and the Endurance, the two strongest wooden ships ever constructed and made famous in the polar expeditions of Amundsen and Shackleton, were sheathed in greenheart to prevent the ships from being crushed by ice. More description here: Here is a page that says: Greenheart Explosive as well as poisonous, greenheart does have some good qualities -- like durability that rivals teak's. Sawyers in Guyana, Surinam, and Venezuela have nasty enough work in the tropical heat day in and day out without worrying about exploding logs on top of it all. But when a load of greenheart comes to the mill, they treat the logs like a truckload of ticking time bombs. The species Ocotea rodiei, it seems, has an usual tendency to split apart so quickly and with such force that pieces of the log can fly when air hits the saw kerf. In at least one instance, sections of a greenheart log actually pierced a mill roof. To prevent such mishaps, mill hands secure the section of the log that has already passed through the saw with a stout chain. As if controlling greenheart's explosive tendency isn't a scary enough situation, all who work the wood also must avoid getting splinters. That's because greenheart, while nontoxic and nonirritating to the touch, somehow causes severe infection when splinters of it penetrate the skin. "Why do these lumberman even bother with the wood?" For several reasons. Besides being a pretty wood, greenheart ranks second only to teak in its natural resistance to marine borers and other insects attacks. It also has high shock resistance, great crushing strength, a high density, and takes a polish with little effort. Such attributes attract ship and boat builders. Before man-made materials, fishing rod makers liked greenheart because it bent without breaking. Durable Wood Products sell Greenheart pilings. Maybe one could get small pieces from them, too. This looks like a source: Finewoods is a dynamic company based in Guyana, we have recently registered in the United States as well. We have been selling tropical lumber from Guyana to the Caribbean islands and Florida for high end villa, home construction and other purposes. We are currently expanding our North American operations and would be grateful if you would indicate any interest you may have in sourcing material from us. Our lumber is of highest quality as we have a strict quality control system. It is harvested according to the Guyana Forestry Commission Code of Practice for environmentally sound, sustainable harvesting. We have professional staff and efficient transport system. You can get air dried and kiln dried lumber in custom cuts as well as standard sizes. Our most commonly marketed species are purple-heart (Peltogyne venosa), red cedar (Cedrela Odorata), andiroba (carapa guianensis) and greenheart (Chlorocardium rodiei (formerly known as Ocotea rodiei). However, we also take orders for other species of rare tropical hardwoods. Most of our woods are used in exterior and interior construction, including floorings and specialty internal cabinetry. We also supply specialty furniture manufacturers. We are currently installing the most modern, state of the art molder in the northeastern South America. In a few months we will also be producing and marketing moldings and doors. Our lumber comes from indigenous community-based producers, which are dependent on selling timber for their main source of livelihood. We support these communities by offering fair prices for their produce and assisting in other ways in their development. Your business with us would contribute to the positive development of impoverished forest-based peoples. Please do not hesitate to contact me for further information or to express any interest. I shall be looking forward to your response. Ray Mangal Phone: 516-603-6154 There seems to be some use by luthiers. It may be possible to find suppliers also via ads in woodworking magazines. (David Zincavage) I see in the taper values from RodDNA that the taper stops at the 115 inch mark and the action length is 119”. Does this mean the taper stops and the rod has a 30” handle? That seems pretty long for a handle. It would not be uncommon to have a 6" butt grip, a 4" reel seat, and a 12" front grip on such a rod. Is double building a necessity for the butt section? Not on a rod with these relatively small diameters for a spey rod. If I want to use a spliced connection instead of nickel silver ferrules, do I need to adjust the taper to a 1 piece? I would not adjust. What guide spacing would I use and what size guides? I can get that for you if you decide to go ahead. What type and size line do I need to cast this beast? A modern spey line rated 6/7 should be fine, As much as I hate to discourage anyone from a rod project, It does not sound to me like you have a situation where a spey rod could be much help. You do need 2-3 rod lengths of clear space behind you to swing the elongated "D" of line to do any of the spey casts properly. Plus, it is next to impossible to execute a spey cast from a riverbank, as the forward part of the line is very low, and always finds something to snag on. So you would need to find places where you could wade, even if its just a little bit. If you don't need to cast for great distances, you might get by with a roll cast. This again is not ideal when standing on a bank, but can be done from reasonably clear spots. A spey rod will roll cast well, but is cumbersome. You might be better served with a long single hand rod with a heavier line, something on the order of a Bokstrom 908. My advice would be to get some instructions in spey casting first, then decide if it can be adapted to your situation. Be warned, it is addictive. (Tom Smithwick) I believe Waara's spey was a 12’ 6 wt not a 12’ 6". I have his original handout he brought to the first Canadian cane gathering along with the rod to cast. Even his taper and graph are hard to figure out but here's how I think the taper should look with some over lap at the end. I think it was a 4 piece though. 0 -.430 -.300
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