Quick question. Has anyone ever placed an overcoat of varnish on top of Flexcoat? I guess the real question is did it work?  (Mike Shay)

Hey Mike. I built that canoe on my web site and put 5 coats of marine spar over the epoxy used to fiberglass it.  It is recommended for that boat. Don't know about the chemical composition of Flexcoat.  (Randall Gregory)

My understanding is that Flexcoat is an epoxy, and if so, it probably requires UV protection.  I know that in the boatbuilding industry, all the various epoxy formulas lack this protection and must be overcoated with a varnish product.  So, there's nothing unusual or incompatible about this.  (Bill Harms)

Through a serious error in judgment, I need to remove some guides that were coated with Flex-Cote. I promise never to use it again. Does anyone have any tricks for getting it off the rods? I am using a scalpel, but it is going sloowwwwllly...(Jeff Schaeffer)

Varnish striper will work - orange (BTX ?) let it really soak in and scrape it gently with something like a soft plastic card. I mean apply it thick, every 10 minutes for 4-5 times and wait an hour. I have also use a razor to get under it and peel it off in a ring , then unwind thread.  (Rex Tutor)

Don't know if this can be done with bamboo or not. With G------, I have soaked the rod in White Vinegar. It don't take too long to soften the Flex Coat.  (Tony Spezio)

I made the same mistake once.  I don't remember who it was, but someone on the list told me what to do -  Cut the thread next to the guide foot on the inside of the wrap (the end of the wrap toward the loop of the guide).  Once you get the thread started pull it out toward the guide.  You can unwind the thread and pull it out from under the epoxy, leaving a tube of epoxy around the rod over the guide foot.  The thread will come out and separate the epoxy from the rod, and you can just peel the epoxy off.  Then it's much easier to scrape off the ridges that are left in-between the windings of the wrap.

My solution was to simply strip the rod down to bare wood, wrap it again, and then dip the finish over the wraps.  (Robert Kope)

My favorite trick for getting rid of epoxy that has cured on guide wraps is to use an old cork ring.  Shave the threads and old epoxy off the guide foot with a razor or a scalpel.  Remove the guide and remove all the thread and as much of the cured epoxy as you can.  Then take an old cork ring and briskly "erase" the epoxy.  The friction from the cork creates a lot of heat that breaks the epoxy down.  Takes a little bit of elbow grease if the epoxy is really thick, but it works really well and leaves a nice clean surface.  (Jason Swan)

My post about removal of flex coat ended happily thanks to great wisdom from a large number of people.

I used flex coat because I was in a rush to complete a rod for a fishing trip, and ran out of time. I did the butt section, and one tip, then ran out of material. When mixing the second batch, a big glop sort of popped into the cup, resulting in an uneven resin/hardener ratio. Like a fool I used it, and the stuff never set. It remained sticky for months. I finally decided to redo the entire rod, and had a hard time getting it off the first guide. I posted one of my perennial "help me please" requests and got some good ideas:

1. Heat it with a hair dryer until it softens.
2. Use that orange varnish remover.
3. Soak it in vinegar or alcohol until it softens.
4. Cut the thread at the guide side, and pull thread out from under the coating which will then peel off.

I tried number 1 and 2, but it was going slowly. I found that if I used a hook blade scalpel, I could insert the blade between the guide foot and the rod, and slowly and carefully make long slit along both guide feet. I then rocked the guide back and forth until it broke free, and this also raised the thread and coating as one single sheet that peeled off easily. This was risky because it would have been fairly easy to cut myself, cut into the rod, or break the tip as I rocked the guides. But I managed to do get it done without incident. I will use varnish remover to spot-remove the remaining material. I will probably re-dip the rod (it had a very thin coat of PU), but I was able to preserve most of the finish. The guide wraps should cover the gaps, so even this may not be needed. One of those all to rare happy endings.  (Jeff Schaeffer)

I had this customer who did his own wraps with Flexcoat on a Shakespeare. There were bulb shaped and I told him I would redo them but he just wanted a varnish. The varnish I dipped on coated the rod and the wraps. It seemed to work but He has not fished this rod so The varnish on the  wraps  may come off but I think it is OK.  (Rex Tutor)

What I do to remove Flex coat is heat with alcohol lamp and then remove with Exacto knife, just cut a little slit and it will peel right off.  (Dave Henney)

When building my  first rod I let the Epoxy build up too much, so with this one I tried to use it sparingly on each wrap.  When it set up and I examined it I found a few places where it was too thin and the thread wraps were showing.  So I decided to add another thin layer, and this is when all hell broke loose. The second layer didn't cure.   I talked to several people to get options for a fix, some said try to get it all off with Epoxy cleaner, others said "Just put on another thin third coat, and it will cure.  So  I added the third coat.  All of the wraps looked good after a few hours so I decided to clean up the work bench while it was rotating.  There was some thread scattered about that I lined up neatly on the wall opposite the rod.  I didn't notice that a stray thread from one of the rolls had fallen over a wrap and was quietly spooling as the rod turned!  It had made ten rotations around the rod when I finally spotted it and pulled  the plug.  I pulled on the thread to get it to unwind from the rod, but pulled too hard and the rod jumped from the drying base and fell, wet and sticky, onto the workbench where the epoxy gathered up stray sawdust left from a previous sawing job!  So I really had a mess.  I picked out the sawdust, tried to smooth out the tacky epoxy as much as possible and mixed up my fourth batch of epoxy for touch up.  The third coat cured well, but the fourth  (touch up jobs) didn't.

At this point I gave up and decided to give it a week and see if the tacky spots would dry.  Of course they didn't, so now, a year later, my rod has some really ugly spots on some of the wraps, not to mention several "pregnant" wraps from too many coats of epoxy.  (Submitted on a non-bamboo list by an anonymous source)

When using epoxy rod finish it is important to stir it well before using. If you don't it will not dry. Stir it and then stir it some more. I'll bet everyone who has used epoxy rod finish has had to find this out the hard way.  (Dave Norling)

The other problem that could cause the epoxy to not set up or dry is if the two parts (A & B) are not equal in quantity when mixing.   This I have learned in the past when building the plastic rods.  (Tom Bowden)

I have found that using too much hardener (Catalyst) will result in unhardened hardener in the resin.  This will give the impression of unhardened resin but it is not.  Using more hardener does not necessarily mean the resin will go off faster.  If you use too much resin the epoxy may take longer to harden and remain unusually soft, almost tacky, to the touch.  (David Gerich)

Can anybody tell me why it is such a huge no-no to use 2 part epoxy varnish to coat and finish the wraps on bamboo rods?

I use polyurethane spar varnish to dip finish the rods, and at this point I laboriously apply multiple coats of various mixtures of polyurethane spar to fill and finish the wraps.  (I dip and finish the rod blank before I attach  the guides, by the way).  The final result is nice, but it is a real pain in the bum to do, and requires such a lot of sanding and polishing.  To me, multiple anything multiplies the chance of something's going wrong.

So, I was playing around with some practice wraps on a bit of scrap hex stock, and on a couple of them I applied an initial coat of  traditional spar followed a day later by one application of 2-part epoxy.  The particular epoxy allows for thinning with the appropriate thinners, and on one of the tests I thinned it to the permissible limit.  Obviously, I was not trying for the spherical, glass bead look so favored by the makers of graphite, but for a low profile, traditional appearance.

And, in my humble opinion, I got it. Honestly, at  the completion of  the exercise I couldn't tell which was the thinned sample and which were the full strength ones; and all of them looked fine - even, smooth, blending nicely with the varnish on the shaft.

A few days later I pulled off one of the pieces of the epoxy, to simulate replacing the guides, and it came off neatly and in one piece.

Of course, this stuff is plastic when you get right down to it, and though I have not polished it at all as yet, I don't see why it would not respond to the Perfect It / Finesse It routine as well as does poly spar or conventional spar.

Soooooo ....... ?

Why not?  (Peter McKean)

My opinion is that there are a couple of good reasons why varnish is used as opposed to epoxy. One is tradition. Duplicating what the old masters did is no simple task and requires patience, skill and artistry. Secondly, during the refurbishing of hundreds of old rods some of which had epoxy on the guide wraps, I found it to be a much more difficult job than if varnish had been used.  (Ray Gould)

I guess because it's new-fangled and the old farts don't want to give in. Everybody on the list is using animal hide glue, tungsten steel snakes and spar varnish on their rods. If you like it use it.  (Marty DeSapio)

If you aren't a regular reader of www.rodbuilding.org, then at least go there and search the site for posts on epoxy finishes, you'll find many more horror stories about it than any you've experienced with varnish. I don't know why anyone uses epoxy, it seems to be a major p.i.a.  (John Channer)

Hey John,  I tried your link to www.rodbuilding.org and got a few great ideas for my next rod.

1.  Sprinkle glitter on the wrap coatings.  Real sparkly

2.  Add red wet and wild colored nail polish to the coating material

3.  Dip a toothbrush in paint and splatter the whole rod.

I imagine there are others but those inspired me.  I guess that there are a lot of ways to hokey up a rod.

LOL  (Ralph Moon)

I used to spend a bit of time on that board when I was building my graphite rods. After reading all those discouraging posts I was afraid to touch the stuff. Then I finally said what the heck and just did it and mine turned out fine without any problems. My general take on most of the horror stories you hear are due to one problem - real men don't read the instructions! This leads to mixing it incorrectly in the wrong proportions, not stirring it long enough, getting too much air in it, applying it incorrectly with the wrong brushes, not using a turning motor/setup, and applying it when it is too cold. Sort of like all the precautions bamboo rodmakers have to be wary of when applying a varnish. Personally, I think there are just as many questions on this and Clark's list about which varnish to use, how to get transparent finishes, how to dip a rod, how to sand/rub out a finish, etc. as there are about epoxy on the other list. It's surprising that we've been applying finishes to wood for several thousand years now and we still have trouble doing it.  (Larry Puckett)

I've used a bunch of different coverings on rod wraps.  I don't like the two part epoxy for a simple reason.  You've got to get the mixture just right or it never dries.  One of my old plastic rods had this problem.   And once it's on and not going to dry, it's hell getting it off.

Having said that, Dave Lewis, a graphite rod builder has great success with FlexCoat. He's been using it for years.  It's been around for a long time and stands up well. 

But it might react with some finishes,  I don't know about that.

I'd guess the main reason for staying away from Flexcoat is tradition.

I think that whatever works for you, works for you.   (Terry Kirkpatrick)

I tried it on my first rod, John Long said to use "Flex Coat" on the wraps.  I don't know what he's using now.

Anyway, about two years later it started coming off in chunks!  I had to refinish several wraps.  I don't know if it was incompatible with the Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil finish I used, or what, but the rod wasn't fished hard at all.

I don't like a high-gloss finish on cane (or on most wood for that matter), I think it makes the end product, whether it be a rod or a piece of furniture, look like plastic.  I use an oil finish of one sort or another on most everything I make these days.

Just my $0.02.  (Neil Savage)

A number of clichés come to mind. Tradition: like the old masters did it: and on and on. Those reasons beg the question of what would the old masters do IF they had modern materials? Would they continue to do things the way they had or take advantage of what technology has to offer?  Would the old time gun makers eschew modern technology? Do knife makers?

If the wraps are what you like, go with it. If later you have problems: well, another learning experience. Your experience might be helpful for others.  (Rich Jezioro)

I have been reading the archives concerning wrapping and finishing rods and noted that most threads referred to the technique of putting several coats of varnish on the wraps independent (in addition to) of the coats put on the bamboo and how they sanded between coats etc. and it seemed as though this was the only recommended method to treat the wraps.  Clear coats seemed to be the most popular.

Now for my questions:  I am curious about two part epoxy coatings such as the high build formula polymer rod wrapping finish made by Flex Coat (and perhaps others).  Does anybody use these finishes for bamboo or are they seen as incompatible aesthetically or technically and only for plastics? 

I would like to hear some commentary if some of you would be so kind.  (Dick Steinbach)

I use Flexcoat, but not the high build. I like a lower profile for my wraps. Polyurethane varnish sticks to it, no problems.  (Darryl Hayashida)

That would make sense. I presume too much build up would add unnecessary and possibly detrimental weight to the smaller rods which could affect performance?   (Dick Steinbach)

My personal opinion.

Before I would use Flex coat, I would try the Gudebrod 840 rod finish.

Wanting to get rod #  1 ready to use on the weekend I finished it,  I applied the Gudebrod 840 water base rod finish on the wraps. It did a nice job. Filled the wraps with just a a few coats. Rod # 1 was not varnished, it was finished with a couple of wipe on coats of Formby's Satin Tung oil finish. I still use the Gudebrod 840 if I want to keep the wraps close to the original color. It also makes the wraps opaque and I don't have the problems I had with color preserver.  When I do use it for the initial coats, I apply two coats and then go to the Helmsman that I normally use for wraps and rod finish. I have had no problems with putting the varnish over the 840. Rod # 1 is now six years old and has been used a lot, it still looks like the day I finished it.

I have now gone more traditional and use varnish on the wraps from the start. In a pinch I have applied the first coat of Helmsman, build up with the 840 and finished with Helmsman. So far, no ill effects. The reason for using the 840 for build up is drying time. The 840 is dry in about 20 minuets.  I know this is not traditional at all but at times I do deviate. I have had no problems doing this.

I only did one rod with Flex Coat. Not for me on Bamboo.  (Tony Spezio)

I find I dislike epoxy on wraps. It doesn't look right on bamboo and I don't even use it anymore for "plastic" rods (if I make one).  (Frank Paul)

Used correctly, that is thinning it and brushing off the excess, epoxy wrap coating is the very best way to achieve translucent wraps. Special oils, etc. aren't necessary.

To use it, mix 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3 denatured alcohol. That's a tip I read on another site by Jeff Hatton. Put on a fairly heavy coat but don't try to do too many guides at one mixing. 6 or 7 maximum. Then go back (by now it will have soaked all the way through the wrap) and using a brush, remove as much of it from each wrap as possible. I use Flex Coat Light and have never had any problem getting varnish to adhere.

Since the beginning of this list it's amazing how many of the "old truths" have been broached. Many of us still cling to tradition, but soaking, sanding nodes, using bench planes, nylon thread, sawing strips, etc., are widely used and accepted. I don't like the "high build' look on any rod but I'll use a modified epoxy finish from time to time.  (Winston Binney)

I recently saw a post that referenced this site.

The idea is using flex coat mixed with acetone or denatured alcohol to give a fantastic translucent look to wraps.  Has anybody tried this technique? Next question is can you dip your rod sections after using this technique?  Will the flex coat and spar varnish be compatible?  The web site does not really address this other than saying finish as usual.  (Gary Stillman)

That post was by listmember Chris Carlin, he'll probably jump in here to give you the answer. I've just started using a product called Threadmaster finish,  which I'm guessing is about the same, in that there is a resin and a hardener that have to be mixed together in equal parts (and a little thinning with denatured alcohol) and it turns Pearsalls white gossamer into water clear wraps. No bubbles, no shimmers and its compatible with varnish.  BUT I do my wraps after the finish is on the rod and then once the Threadmaster sets up, a coat or two of varnish over that. Thanks for the tutelage Harry!!  (Will Price)

For some reason I always looked at dipping as a before the wraps or after the wraps proposition. For some reason I never thought about the approach you mentioned!  I am anxious to try that approach to dipping sections.  (Gary Stillman)

I have not had any compatibility problems with any varnish or polyurethane varnish that I have tried as long as you give the FC a few days to properly cure.  I usually apply the FlexCoat then add a few coats of Varathane 900 or Varathane Diamond water based urethane to build up and smooth wraps a bit, then dip the entire rod in MOW, Sutherland Welles or Helmsman's.

I have also done as Will mentioned and finished wraps after dipping, also without any problems.

I have not yet been able to try Threadmaster, though from talking with Andy Dear it sounds like it'll act about the same as FlexCoat.  I have some on order and am looking forward to giving it a whirl.  (Chris Carlin)

It works great, and gets rid of the shimmers once and for all. Just let it cure well before dipping or varnishing the wraps. You want it to be the consistency of milk (very thin) before applying it as a first coat, and don't try and load up the thread. Just get it good and wet. I use it under spar.  (Jeff Schaeffer)

Yes, it all works as described. Make sure to let the epoxy cure long enough before varnishing, acetone or alcohol will severely slow it down. One thing to keep in mind is to keep your epoxy coat thin. It doesn't sand very well and will tend to round out the rod. I just use one base coat then finish the wrap with varnish so I can keep the wraps flat.  (John Channer)

For those of you who are using epoxy on your wraps, I saw this stuff and got some for use on my new spinning rod:

Swifty Manufacturing Diamondite

Acid Rod Epoxy Finishes

Was wondering if anyone had experimented with it on cane rods?

I did a test wrap and it came out really clear, minimally flat, shiny and smooth with absolutely NO bubbles (imagine how wet silk thread looks when you first dab on the varnish!) and cured overnight. The test wrap was with black thread for my spinning rod but I might also do one with silk to see if it gets the transparent look as well.

Obviously this isn't to everyone's taste, but there have been a few message on the last year or so with rod makers using epoxy so I thought I'd throw it out there.  (Nick Kingston)

Here's some interesting facts about Diamondite.  I primarily use it on graphite rods but have done one bamboo and two others waiting to get done.

Diamondite will dry quicker than any 2-part epoxy, even without a light bulb. Put a light bulb on it and/or circulating air - concrete within 2 hours or less. I do recommend letting it gel prior to putting the heat and/or circulation to it, however.  I use a 100 watt white not blue bulb in my shop light that has a metal reflector.

Understand that it is NOT an epoxy; it is an adhesive based product.

1. Don't over mix it, 30-45 seconds is plenty.

2.  After mixing, allow the blended product to "mature" for 4-5 minutes BEFORE application.

3. Don't pour it out in a thin layer like epoxy ... just the opposite; keep it in a deep container while using it. It is unique, rather like glue and paint - when in significant capacity ... it doesn't dry or at least not quickly at all. But spread it thin, and poof ... it quickly dries and sets. I use the small soufflé cups like the FlexCoat product for mixing and applying Diamondite. The  working time is about an hour, even at my shop temp of 80 degrees.

4. It is VERY clear.

5. It is VERY strong and hard.

6. It is VERY flexible.

7. You CAN apply additional coats long after the others - again, those adhesive properties kick in.

8. It does NOT contain any amines ... no sensitivity issues.

9. It cleans up with Acetone or Denatured Alcohol.

10. It levels very well.

11. It penetrates very well.

12. It actually stays where you put it and can be applied thin or thick, pretty cool trick considering how accustomed most of us are to epoxies.

13. It WILL slice your delivery time by DAYS.

14. Always remember, 1 part activator and 2 parts base component. BTW, it isn't real picky about the ratio ... obviously, mix it in proper ratio - but it won't fry your potatoes like epoxies do when the numbers aren't right.

15.  Because it is adhesive based, it does NOT have nearly the issues with being "repelled" by silicone, oils, etc. It can happen – but not nearly to the degree as with epoxies.

16. It can be thinned successfully with Denatured Alcohol.  I have used ratios as high as 2-1-1 (Base, Activator,  DNA) with excellent penetration, drying and results.  This is what I use to finish silk threads.  It is recommended that you use Diamondite CP when utilizing their finish.

However, I have used U40's Color Lock with good results.   And I'm trying some of my wife's scrap booking crap called "Delta Ceramcoat" that appears to be very good.  (Ron Hossack)

Who sells this stuff?  (John Channer)

I personally have bought from Mark @ Acid Rods and from Johnny's Pond.

Here are a few sites  I know so depending on your part of the country.

Acid Rods

Johnny's Pond

Mud Hole

Angler's Workshop  (Ron Hossack)

One of the big reasons I epoxy the first layers of my wraps is the way it anchors the guide to the rod. I use my own rods pretty hard and have found that with epoxy the guides do not crack at the the wraps and I eliminate casting fractures at the ferrules. If the new stuff is not epoxy is it as tough as epoxy?  (Dave Norling)

David is correct used for the first layer it produces a better finish than just varnish because the treads do not crack around the ferrule anywhere as much. after the first layer is glued to the rod shaft then use the varnish. You will not get any more build up than 7 standard coats of varnish. I call this moving with the times and it  also improves my rods because I am using a better product. If this was available when Payne of Garrison was around I am convinced they would have used it. why use an inferior product anyway.  (Gary Nicholson)

Using epoxy sounds good but how would you replace a guide?  (Bill Vincent)

Same way you do with varnish.  In fact, polyurethane is much more difficult to remove than epoxy.  (Harry Boyd)