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As tough as it is to accept things we don't really want to believe, from what I have seen a lot of the more recent "classic" rod makers (i.e., from the 60's - 80's) used nylon wraps. I bought my first quality rods in the 1960's, and I don't remember hearing any discussions at all about silk vs. nylon. The rods were sold for fishing. And the thread is nowhere near 6/0 in size. I have a beautifully finished varnished T&T rod from the early 70's made of pre-embargo cane with what I believe to be nylon wraps, and a few years later when T&T came out with a regular catalog, they were selling thread as "size A nylon, the standard of the industry." The wraps are tight, smooth, and beautiful. I'd like to know what others with more historical knowledge have to say on this. It's obvious that the old rodmakers used silk in the years before nylon was readily available, but even then most of those old rods that I have seen appear to have threads that are larger than 6/0. Is it accurate to say that use of very fine threads is a recent phenomenon? I should add that I do not intend any of this to be a criticism of either new or old rods. Good wraps are good wraps. I personally prefer silk wraps with threads that are a bit larger than is currently fashionable, but I wouldn't hesitate to use nylon where appropriate in restoring wraps. (Terry Finger) The current trend toward very fine thread is just that. The standard for trout rods was A to 2/0. The silk thread thing was a point of wonder for John Weir in the 80's. He just said 'why?' He used Gudebrod 2/0 nylon on his rods. The old Gudebrod 2/0 was a 3 ply thread just like the A was . The newer stuff was just A with one of the plies taken out and didn't wrap smooth like the old stuff did. Most of my earlier rods are wrapped in the nylon I bought from John. Now trying to sell a rod wrapped with nylon draws a gasp at your lack of couth and diminished sense of propriety. Still sometimes wonder why I don't go back to the nylon, still have 4 or 5 of those giant cones left. Everyone knows I have no sense of style anyway. As a BTW John was always amazed at the need to use NS for the reel seat hardware. He thought it was too heavy, aluminum worked better , was lighter, and was readily available. Like most of the past generation, he just built fishing rods. (AJ Thramer) If nylon is used, should the thread that has been pretreated with color preserver be used, or should the non-treated thread be used? What about colors? I have only seen a handful of bamboo rods and all the wraps have been brown. What about dark green, black, crimson, or yellow: would using any of these colors on bamboo be a faux pas in the eyes of a traditionalist? (Kyle Druey) Use thread without color-preserver. You can apply two or three initial coats of ordinary "airplane dope" to the wraps (prior to finishing up with varnish), if you want to preserve the. Or, if you want the color to deepen, apply varnish right from the start. There will be a remarkable difference in the finished wraps. Of course, this goes for silk too. As to color, you can use just about anything (except, that is, for anything blue). Earth-tones seem to look best, but many excellent rods have been wrapped with brighter hues of green, olive, red and yellow. The Leonard "red-wrap," of course, became famous (though that may have had something to do with the rods themselves). If you don't wish to be dictated by tradition, then by all means, please yourself. Wayne Cattanach built a purple cane rod for his daughter, and I gather, everyone was delighted. Besides, if one day, you want to change the color of your wraps, it's no big deal. (Bill Harms) Use what you want , every ghastly color known to man has been used on bamboo rods at one time or an other. You should see some of the god awful combinations that Montague, H-I, Shakespeare and others used to put on rods, there should have been a law! Nylon is much easier to work with and wraps faster because of it's diameter than the fine silks we punish ourselves with, my only complaint is that it looks like rope compared to silk. If you guys are wondering where this all started, I believe we have Tom Maxwell to thank (or whatever) for the current cosmetics craze. (John Channer) I wouldn't know about the historical record on silk wraps. All one hears about is silk (it's almost synonymous with "wraps"), and yet I wouldn't doubt that a great many rods by "the masters" were wrapped in nylon. It used to be possible to obtain nylon in #3/0 and finer, and I still have some, and I still use it from time to time. I am almost ashamed to admit that I've wrapped some of my rods in nylon -- the snob-appeal of silk is so pervasive. Among Dante's rings in the Inferno, current rodmakers seem to reserve the severest punishment for those who would deign to violate our covenant with silk. Indeed, fishing with graphite is but a minor barbarism, compared to the cardinal sin of wrapping with nylon. This is a pretty silly business, folks. Silk is very, very nice indeed, but if you can find fine nylon, there's nothing wrong with using it. In fact, I really do wonder how many builders among us could actually tell the difference. Those who swear they can, often can't. (Bill Harms) So, what is a good brand/size of nylon to use, and where do you buy it? (Claude Freaner) Gudebrod Size A, green is 5896, red is 326 (I believe). Both look nice. The purple is a nice color too, but I do not have the spool handy. I think this is NCP nylon. I know it is from Angler's Workshop. The green looks great tipped with navy, and the red with black. The guys at the WNY Gathering saw the intermediate rod with the green/navy combo. They seemed to like it, and no one said, "Hey, is that nylon!" Disclaimer: this nylon is only used sparingly in the time honored tradition of the silk using masters who have come before us and those practicing at present. (Bob Maulucci) I don't know where to get the 2/0 any longer. Gudebrod used to make it, but they only have A available now. It's a shame. But you could ask around for old inventory. Darrell Lee might be able to help. (Bill Harms) I have quite a few T&T rods. The earliest #2094 is the 94th rod Maxwell & Dorsey made and it has Silk wraps. All others I have are wrapped in silk. That is not to say that a customer did not request nylon. As far as makers I know that wrapped in nylon we have Orvis, Phillipson, Winston (SF models), Amherst and apparently some Howells. (Marty DeSapio) I have wrapped some rods in nylon floss. The results were very good. I don't believe anyone could tell it wasn't silk. It was out of an old box I extracted this floss. I have never been able to find more. If I could I would use it. (Timothy Troester) I use nylon - like it and don't intend to change. Silk is tough to work with, fuzzy, won't burnish well, stains, rots and is generally a pain. So I'm an infidel. Any hope now that I've confessed. (Don Anderson) In Milward's Book he states he uses nylon for his wraps and he challenges anyone to tell it from silk. It is kind of funny... Here we are making Custom Rods and yet if a maker does something different then others his work is held up as somehow "Not status Quo". A maker defines what his work is be it using nylon, gossamer, Naples or 00. If it is not what everyone else is using it is apparent he does not give a damn what others are doing. If he wanted to make a rod like everybody else he would be doing just that. I personally have in my minds eye what a rod should be for me, and this is what I strive for in making my own rods. Others have a different vision. I have seen bamboo rods with varnish on their grips, long reels seats and silicon carbide strippers. These things are not part of my vision of the ultimate rod. But to others it is. I saw Howells rod go for $4500 on eBay even with power fibers showing. Then again Picassos has paintings that look weird and they sell for hundreds of thousands. Who is to say what is right? I know what is right for me and actually I have only seen 5 makers that make rods that I would consider to emulate. This does not mean other makers are wrong in what they do far from it. Rodmakers flinch and wince start to rant at the mention of a rod makers guild and refuse to even think about it because they do not want someone to tell them what they do is wrong. Yet it in many ways is already here. (Adam Vigil)
They're actually no more clear, it's just that the background on a blonde rod camouflages the silvering in the wraps. If a method doesn't get them clear on a flamed rod, then you can count on that same method not getting them clear on a blonde, it's just not as noticeable. Keep in mind that the "silvering" is nothing more than minute air pockets caught in the wraps. Put them against a light background and they aren't as visible. Put them against a dark background and the same ones stand out like a sore thumb. Getting clear wraps isn't that hard, just takes a LOT of attention to detail in the wraps... sometimes takes some rubbing or pounding. I "pound" the air pockets out of the thread with the metal barrel on the 1/8" straight shader brush that I use to put the finish on the wraps. Actually not pounding, just light taps on the silvered areas and those air bubbles will float out as the tapping is forcing the spar into the threads. There are some expensive varnishes out there that will do just as good of a job with a lot less effort, for example, Alchemist brand Amber Varnish at $28 an ounce, but still, the wraps don't just miracle themselves clear... it does take a concerted effort, especially if you're going with white silk to make invisible wraps... one little mistake on those and it stands out like a sort thumb. Colors like Brown, Scarlet, dark green, etc., tend to hide the silvering in themselves quite a lot. Lighter colors like white, light olive, etc., tend to make the silvering stand out. But, if it shows in the light, and you're using the same method on the darker threads, it is still there... just not easily visible. (Bob Nunley) Somebody, I think it was Harry Boyd, said they had been getting good results with Damar varnish. I did a search for their web page and it looks very interesting. Has anybody tried this... and is it compatible with varnishes, urethanes and polys? (Bill Hoy) Thanks Bob. That helps a lot. I think wraps are the hardest thing to get right and I know from my experiences that I can use alot of work on my wraps. When I used to use Spar urethane on my wraps they came out really nice but ever since I switched to varnish it has been a real chore to make them look good. Also when I first started I used nylon instead of silk which was also easier and produced a more transparent look. So when I went from restorations to making I wanted to be authentic and use silk and varnish. I'm wondering now since I hate that part of the procedure, if it was the right choice? (Tony Miller) I noticed the same exact thing. I guess because of the contrast in colors. (Marty DeSapio) That's what I've especially noticed on clear wraps too. But I think Bob Nunley is right. That the bubbles are still there, but not as noticeable on the lighter cane. (Tony Miller)
Yes, you can, but don't be wasteful!!! (John Kenealy) I do with no problem, but it depends on how much waste you have. Don’t make long cutoffs and don't make long starting tags or you'll run out before you're done. Keep in mind that I do NOT use hook keepers, so that is quite a lot of thread saved. (Bob Nunley) I don't plan on a hook keeper either so hopefully it will work out for me! By the way, am I okay using Gossamer on ferrules or should I think about something heavier? (Mike Mihalas) No problem, I use gossamer on the ferrules also. No cracking problem at all. (Bob Nunley)
I won't speak to nylon because I have no experience with it, but over the past several months I wrapped my first several rods with different silks, and I learned a few things. Silk is definitely traditional, and it is beautiful. There is a difference between Naples and gossamer, but once the varnish is on that difference is minimal. The difference IS detectable, but both will give a beautiful transparent wrap. There are several situations where Gossamer will provide better results- tipping, and white wraps that are meant to become absolutely transparent. What matters FAR more than silk diameter is attention to detail and consistency. Your wraps need to be the same length, the silk needs to be burnished, packed, and singed, and the pull through loops should be near the guide feet or they will show. It is easy to make a wrap that looks good dry, but gaps show up when varnish is applied. To prevent this, apply a drop of water or extremely dilute varnish to the wraps after you are finished- most problems that show up will be correctable with the burnishing tool. As for darkening of the silk, this is a problem I am wrestling with now. You can use a color preserver, but most of the threads in the archives have a negative view of this-many people believe that you end up with other problems. Varathane 900 is said to give a semi preserved look to your color (darkens the wrap, but not as much as regular varnishes), but I can not find this product anywhere I have looked, and will have to order it from Golden Witch to even try it. The bottom line is that you may be surprised at how light of a color you need to obtain to get the color you want. Without preserver or maybe Varathane, silk darkens like mad. Working with Naples vs. Gossamer? Both are fine, but gossamer is a challenge. I about tore my hair out working with the stuff. Bob Nunley recommends that gossamer users should by aspirin and other strong painkillers in bulk for the headaches ... The stuff is workable, but expect to spend some time getting used to it, and you need a magnifying glass. But it gives beautiful wraps, and there is a wide color assortment available. However, getting good results with gossamer will most likely require more time- the time you spend getting used to it, and the extra time it takes to produce a beautiful wrap. No question that thicker silks allow you to go faster. But if time was important you would not be messing with cane in the first place. (Jeff Schaeffer) Try the Gudebrod 822 or 840 on your wraps in place of Color Preserver. The 822 is a satin finish and the 840 is a gloss finish. I use the 840 and steel wool the wraps before varnishing. This will work for you on keeping the color without using preserver. I will never use color preserver again. Had too many problems with it in the past on Graphite rods. I have done right at 37 bamboo rods with the Gudebrod product and have not had a problem. This is water base and you can apply several coats in an hour. Some colors will darken about 1/4 shade or less, other colors will not darken at all. It does not make the thread transparent. It is more of a sealer. The one thing you have to keep in mind, the wrap will have to be totally sealed so that no varnish will seep under the wrap at the guide foot. If it does there will be a dark mark in the wrap at that point. (Tony Spezio)
I like using size A at the ferrules, but it probably would work just fine for a whole rod. (Tim Stoltz) I love using Size A Silk, especially vintage Belding-Corticelli, Paragon, Richardson, etc. The only problem is nailing a color that you can get a bunch of. ($$$) It's easy to work with and I usually tip with Naples or Gossamer. Get on eBay, but be warned, bidding against those grizzled sewing chicks can be brutal! (Eamon Lee) Size 50 is roughly equivalent to Size A. I did some tests several months ago. I marked off about 1/2" on a wooden dowel and counted the number of revolutions it took with each size of thread. I repeated the test with different spools of thread, but the results were almost exactly the same. Here's what I found:
(Rich Margiotta) If memory serves me right, most silk sizes we would find of interest are measured in some dumb measurement called denier, and these are 50 and 100. These numbers correspond to sizes "00" and "000". Size "00" is just a tad smaller that size "A" nylon. Size "000" silk makes a really nice wrap for cane (or plastic) rods. (Don Greife) Something else to remember is how flat the thread lays on the rod. Seems to have something to do with the twist of the thread. While Naples might have more wraps in a given space than say BC 'A' I have found that the BC will fill with fewer coats that the Naples. It seems to flatten out like floss. Just another variable to fuss over. (AJ Thramer)
I think it's a good and important question. Though I'm not sure if I reply to your question correctly... In our traditional Japanese rod making, making a round and hollow cane rod, the reason of using silk thread was for strength. Though we may not need such strong binding force of wrapping on snake guide foot, but we had needed rather stronger force of wrapping at the portion of connection and power wraps on hollowed blank. Power wrap was needed on split cane rods when we did not have so strong adhesives in old days. In old days, we used urushi varnish. When urushi is absorbed inside the silk thread, if we use strong type of urushi, the varnish will weaken the thread. So, it was important to use weaker type of urushi on the wraps. Have you taken off your wrap which is varnished with epoxy and polyurethane? Was the thread coming out as thread? Probably No. Thread may be taken out like as a thin sheet of plastic. When we use such chemical varnish, even silk thread is changed to the plastic by absorbing varnish and has lost the original strength as thread. It is al right while it is used on snake wraps where no such strong binding force is needed. So does nylon thread, probably even cotton for snake foot. (Max Satoh) There are likely other reasons but the main one that I can see (the other being looks) is if you bind in nylon the bamboo will dent from the nylon trying to return to it's relaxed state after being stretched during the binding process, just like nylon on a fishing reel spool after fighting a really big fish. (Tony Young) Nope, that's about it. But, being rodmakers, I'm sure we could generate some theories. (Bill Harms) Hmmm, good idea, Bill. The List is slow, and AJ's post was entirely too practical, as is the advice "Build it any way you want to." Can anyone substantiate the postulation that the silk, due to it's lower modulus of elasticity (Young's Modulus) than nylon, actually contributes to an increased power curve in the bamboo fly rod due to increased resistance to stretch as the rod attempts to flatten it's profile during the casting stroke? I submit for your approval that this is the case, and that no one can prove otherwise. >>8^Þ (Martin-Darrell) But, of course -- as every schoolboy knows! This theory actually goes back to an ancient Yangtze discovery whereby the sinues of cricket legs were lashed together with silk to form crossbows. Silk wraps were found to be superior even to graphite-impregnated epoxy. Oh yes, graphite existed in 5th cent. BC too -- formed by charring strips of bamboo taken from Nunley's oven. Oh yes, Nunley was there! Indisputable and time-tested, this theory of silk wraps remains responsible for all great bamboo rods being great! Wrap those same rods in nylon, and they will not cast a line of ANY sort. :>) (Bill Harms) The theory of Young's module is based on seeing the dents left in a rewrap I once did that came to me with with nylon wraps. The wraps were very long and an ugly color and the guy wanted the wraps shorter than they were. There were dents in the bamboo where the wraps were so the silk needed to be wrapped to the same length as the nylon to cover these. It's no problem I guess but it does mean if you ever do a rewrap it has to at least cove the original wraps, again no big deal. The fishing spool part of the theory comes from catching some Samson fish on an ABU 7500 and not trailing the line and re winding it on the boat ride home. Two week later the line was a mass of crinkled and useless 25 lb mono. Lesson, if you get too sea sick to look after your mono line after a fishing trip use Spider Wire or maybe silk?? (Tony Young) Stubbornness and self torture come to mind. I do not think that there is any real advantage. Silk does look very nice. I do all the rods I keep for myself wrapped in nylon. I keep the wraps opaque. I like them like that. It's cheaper, easier to wrap, coat, and fish. I use Pearsalls silks for customer's rods. Is it nicer? I don't think it is significantly better in any way except for salability. My two cents, go ahead and flame away boys! (Bob Maulucci) Don't you think the silk lays flatter and makes for a smoother transition to the flat when varnishing? This leads me to a question: how do you guys smooth out the ridge of varnish that builds up between the ferrule wrap and the ferrule? When I mask off the ferrule with magic tape a "wall" of varnish builds up, when I pull the tape off the varnish ridge stands out like a you know what in a punch bowl. Any suggestions here? (Kyle Druey) I never try to mask off this area when varnishing the wrap. In fact, as I build the finish, I allow a few coats to form a minute "ramp" between the wrap and the metal. After the wraps are finished, I varnish the entire rod including the ferrules, and this smoothes out the transition. (Bill Harms) I don't use masking tape on the ferrule, I use Scotch tape. It is super thin and the ridge is very low that way. Can polish it off in a heartbeat with a little 2000 grit and touch it up with Finesse-It II polish and she's clean as a whistle. (Bob Nunley) Even if I wrap a ferrule , I occasionally get a wall/ring of varnish on the ferrule, too, but not always. My belief is that the varnish is too thick when that happens. I always pull tape after 24 hour of drying. I can easily remove varnish under or touching tape with alcohol on rag. The varnish has some pliability and is still mildly workable. At about 48 hours I have to buff off, with the Dremel, any varnish on metal. (Rex Tutor) There is no reason to use silk other than personal preference and tradition. Nylon will go clear just as silk does. Nylon works better for preserved wraps since the changes in varnish and lacquer. White shellac gives a different look to the silk that can be attractive. It is increasingly difficult to obtain 2/0 nylon to wrap fly rods these days which is a significant point in obtaining nice looking wraps with nylon. As to flat wraps, the recent Pearsalls craze wraps just as round as any nylon. Like many things recently there seems to be the 'bamboo correct' way to build a rod that has no basis in fact or function. As there are many more talented amateur makers (less than a dozen sales a year) than professionals the dictated standards are being driven by builders with virtually unlimited time to expend on each rod. Great if someone wants the resulting work of art but a tough break if someone wants to buy a cane rod to try one out for three digits. Use what you want to in other words. (AJ Thramer) Yeah! I always just let my taste guide me. I like silk. I also like Busch Beer and pork rinds. No accounting for taste. (Brian Creek) I agree with Mr. Thramer. I have seen guys swear they can tell the difference between beers as well as nylon/silk. I think a lot of makers use nylon as it is easier to deal with and let people admire the wraps and think what they will. (Rex Tutor)
Any other ideas on this one? (Jerry Andrews) Try using nylon instead. Lasts longer. (Tony Young) You might be using a little more tension than you need (Mike Shay) I haven't tried burnishing, but an idea I got from the list, Harry mentioned it as I recall, is to use monofilament for the pull loop. Since I switched, I haven't had any more problems with pull loop breaking like when I used silk thread or fuzz left around like when I tried Kevlar thread. I had some 6X around and it worked fine, but to go to the extreme (after all, just "regular" stuff just wouldn't be bambooish now, would it?) I switched to 8X fluorocarbon. I'm using Pearsalls Gossamer for silk, and wanted the smaller diameter to leave the wraps a little tighter. Works great. (Ralph MacKenzie) I use tippet material. 3x or 4x I think. (Timothy Troester) I use 4x tippet material for pull loops. One piece usually lasts for a couple of rods. (Steve Weiss) I use 6 lb test line, and I found you should pull the thread through the tunnel right next to the guide, then I pull it tight and pull it out of the tunnel. Silk does break real easy if you try to pull it through on a flat, especially when I use any kind of jasper thread. Just pull your loop through tunnel by guide foot and you shouldn’t have a problem. (Dave Henney)
Not at all. Many rod companies over the years used size A and 00 (Garrison favored A) of which I can't see a difference in size between. That said I like Pearsalls Naples best (Gossamer for tipping) (Marty DeSapio) I second Marty's opinions. I like the Naples for smaller rods and Size A on larger rods or where I want a certain color on smaller rods. (Naples is only available in a few colors, but they're great colors for wrapping.) Gossamer for tipping. Main wraps with the Gossamer drove me nuts trying to avoid overwraps and spaces, especially on butt sections. If you can work with it, it will look a tad better than Naples (thinner is better as far as appearance goes). (Rich Margiotta)
Those separations or whatever they are have been on my mind since I saw them last week. I have the feeling that you will end up rewrapping those guides but if so you might as well try something else first. I doubt you will be able to get a hypodermic needle that will be strong enough although they do come in really small sizes. Welding supply stores sell drill bits down to .0135" (maybe smaller) that you turn by hand with a pin vise. You may be able to make a hole in each end of the separation and force varnish or epoxy resin in one hole and out the other with the syringe. Do you know what the wraps were originally coated with? If you suspect the hot dry climate caused the problem maybe you could put the rod in a moist and cool place for a while to see what happens. Is T & T still making rods? With a valuable rod like that maybe the owner should send it back to them for a "factory" rewrap to protect the rods "originality"? All seriousness aside, I do have some suggestions for you to consider regarding the well and pressure tank in your shop. By all means try to have 3 pipes extending out in different directions from the base at about 3-4" off the floor. Mine only has two and sometimes I don't trip over them so I think 3 would be ideal. Another fine point would be to have a power cable going straight up to the ceiling from the pump so that when you swing a long object around you will have something to stop it. (C. Scott Bennett)
Would like some opinions on thread color over blued components. I've used either tan or the Pearsalls classic chestnut on my previous rods - all with silver ferrules & guides. The wraps come out semitransparent, and I'm concerned that this will look funny with dark components. I was thinking of using a darker color thread. Will probably run some tests to see for myself, but thought I'd see what others think. (Tom Bowden) Personally, I don't find the black tabs showing underneath the thread to be unattractive. The Classic Chestnut or Java Brown both look nice, but use the Naples on larger rods. (Martin-Darrell) Don't blue the part that gets wrapped over. (John Channer) I have been using the Gudebrod varnish on the ferrule wraps to keep them opaque. It does darken the color, but I like the opaque look at the ferrules quite a bit. Actually, I like the look on guides too. I use this on my rods that I fish. (Bob Maulucci) I point the tabs with a small jewelers file and wrap the ferrules with the same thread as the guides. I use light colored thread that matches the cane. The pointed tabs show with the transparency of the light thread on the ferrules just as they do on the guide feet. I also use tipping on all my wraps. I like the look. (Dave Norling)
There is no reason to use silk other than personal preference and tradition. Nylon will go clear just as silk does. Nylon works better for preserved wraps since the changes in varnish and lacquer. White shellac gives a different look to the silk that can be attractive. It is increasingly difficult to obtain 2/0 nylon to wrap fly rods these days which is a significant point in obtaining nice looking wraps with nylon. As to flat wraps, the recent Pearsalls craze wraps just as round as any nylon. Like many things recently there seems to be the 'bamboo correct' way to build a rod that has no basis in fact or function. As there are many more talented amateur makers (less than a dozen sales a year) than professionals the dictated standards are being driven by builders with virtually unlimited time to expend on each rod. Great if someone wants the resulting work of art but a tough break if someone wants to buy a cane rod to try one out for three digits. Use what you want to in other words. (AJ Thramer) Bingo! We amateur makers do spend a lot of time on a rod contemplating what is to be done, checking every wrap and double checking and triple checking all the fine details. It is the journey I guess that a lot of use like. When I finish a rod I start on another not because I need another rod but because it is another journey. I think all makers need to stop being followers and start being innovators. We all know how to do it the "Traditional way" of years gone by it is time to make some advances and stir things up. I like reading stuff John Bokstrom came up with or Bill Waara, now there are 2 guys who understood rodmaking is an adventure and not a fanatical fringe cult of follow the leader. The funny things is the Leonard, Payne, Powell were all innovators not followers. (Adam Vigil)
In Sinclair's book "Heddon..." there's a picture of the gals in the Wrapping Room doing just that , without any devices other than a thread spool holder. I've read the stories of other companies having just one gal [Granger] do most all the wrapping, totally freehand! I figure it'd be best if you were a gal, or just practice a lot more. Like most things you learn to do, the way you start doing it usually wins out, so I started with an inexpensive spool holder/tensioner from Clemens, and do the wraps free of stantions, guides, etc. or "just freehand". The one item I'll use occasionally is a clothes pin to hold the tension of a wrap by clamping it on the section, then laying down to catch a phone call or take care of "the call of nature" I've been able to work almost exclusively with Pearsalls Gossamer silk, and six turn tipping without problems. With a packer/burnisher and the same silk thread tag pullers, I can do wraps as good as any I’ve seen, but I attribute that to practice. I can see how wrapping systems would help, but know that they, in my mind, are not necessary, and can be very costly. I'd rather put the $ into silk thread. I also found that I adapted techniques I read about over time to "what worked with my fat fingers" to get the process right for me. (Chad Wigham) I once had a ex. Leonard employee show me how Virginia Lures (Spelling?) used to wrap all Leonard rods without use of anything but the spool of thread and a knife. No pull cord or anything else. He learned from her and did all his rods that way. Pretty neat but I think my regular run of the mill way is faster (at least for me). (Marty DeSapio) Fairly simple to make one. Make it as plain or as elaborate as you wish. Mine has a bed with two rails, one rail accommodates three cradles that can lock in any position via a wood screw, the other rail carries a post with two spools of thread that are tensioned by springs and a wing nut. This piece just slides on the second rail allowing it to line up where needed to wrap a guide. (Steve Trauthwein) I made one years ago based on one that was sold thru the "Fireside Angler Catalog". The thing uses a fly tying bobbin to hold the thread and a couple porcelain drawer pulls to pull the thread around for tension if needed. It also has three cradles to support the rod. I never really use the cradles but just hold the blank and turn. I can send a photo if someone is interested. (Marty DeSapio)
Only if you use short wraps and don't waste hardly any. For me its definitely 1.5 spools! Good luck. (Gary Marshall) Yup, that Sir D I had out with us on the FYAO was done with one spool of claret, with a bunch left over (even counting my mistakes. (Mark Wendt) Shouldn't be a problem, but I would say that until you get really familiar with the thread and wrapping it a good idea would be to have two spools instead of one, just in case, especially on swelled butt rods. I don't remember ever using more than one spool, then again I usually do my ferrules in black. (Shawn Pineo) I've only made 4 rods, but I've had no trouble wrapping the whole thing with one spool. I make my wraps about 1/4" long, with 4 turn tips (I can't get 3 turns of gossamer to stick!) On the other hand, if you expect to make more than one rod anyway, get 2 spools just in case. (Neil Savage) I've had my share of trouble getting 3 turns to stick, but I've manage to make them fairly "easy" lately. This is how I does it: Start by making the loop to pull the tag and wrap it in on the first turn, make the next two turn, cut the thread, into the loop and drag it under and out. Now here is the trick, grab both tags and pull them hard to tighten the turns. Make sure You pull in the direction they exit the wrap. Cut the tags, but leave them 1/2 inch. Now varnish and when cured take a razor blade and cut the tags flush. Help to get a clean cut by pulling the tag gently. It works for me, and I rarely have them come off or have to redo........(Danny Twang) Oh BTW 1 spool should do one rod.....
Varnish almost always "cancels out" the yellow in the thread. In order to preserve the yellow, you'll have to color-preserve in some fashion. I think an intense yellow and blonde or amber shellac might give you the results that you want. (John Zimny) I just wrapped a rod using Pearsalls Antique Gold Gossamer. I used the Shellac 50/50 denatured alcohol mix as color preserver, and only 2 coats, and got a semi transparent effect. I played with it on an old blank, and one coat didn't work, but it may with a heavier mix. Hope this helps. (Chad Wigham)
Sharpie does make red, green and blue, but that's all, no shades to choose from. If you have a craft store nearby, look in the scrapbook area, they use permanent colors (ask my wife -- she uses "Creative Memories" products, the high $ stuff.) (Neil Savage) Have you tried Pantone markers? I use them to alter flies on the water sometimes and they come in a plethora of colors and are permanent. I do not know how they would react to varnish solvents however. I suppose I could try. (good use for all that white silk laying around. The local art supply store carries them, but with Syracuse University a mile away, art supply store take on a whole new meaning. VERY dangerous places! (Eamon Lee) I use Prismacolor markers to color thread all the time. You can buy them at any art supply store. One side has a broad tip, the other side has a fine pointed tip. I use a razor blade to make a small slice in the broad tip and then just run my thread through the slice. I have covered this dyed thread with both spar varnish and two-part epoxy and never had a problem. Prismacolor can be found in hundreds of shades, I'm sure you can find a color to suit your needs. (Jeff Fultz) Sharpie makes colored markers, have seen and bought them at Lowes hardware and Walmart. (Gary Jones) Are you trying fabric markers. A craft store should have some fabric markers that would withstand going through the washing machine. I would think that would work for you except they could be bothered by varnish. (Tim Wilhelm) Sharpie, does indeed make a full spectrum of colored markers The Ultra fine point is product number 37175. They also make them in bold point as well. I use them to keep track of the strips when I build nodeless. (Mark Cole) I have to ask: what were you doing that required coloring thread? This sounds like a secret restoration technique that the list needs to know about. (Jeff Schaeffer) No secrets Jeff, just playing with thread colors to tie extended body flies in the "Tony Spezio" style. He is a great tier and has shown me a lot about flies and rod building. (Don Greife)
While the use of Pearsalls contributed to the revelation, it was the realization that I had set the tensioner too tight that finally made my wrapping much better. (Mark Wendt)
Apparently the mass-producers wrap their rods the same way that many of us do, just a lot faster (at least compared to me). It would be interesting to see how fast these folks could wrap a rod with 6/0 Pearsalls Gossamer! (Tom Bowden) ------ Subject: Cool Experience Hi Tom, I was visiting my sister on Bainbridge yesterday and, what the hey, called Sage to see if they had tours. I got the usual, we do it on Tuesday/Thursday stuff and just kept talking. Well, they came through. Sweet little Kelly gave me a one-on-one tour of the facility. It was damn cool. We started at the lay-up area for blanks and ended at final quality control. I was most impressed with the rod wrapping. Holy ****, they go fast. There was this little Phillipino woman that was putting on guides. When she spun the rod to wrap the thread, it was FAST. I mean blur fast. They have this huge room with banks or rod turners 10' high to cure the epoxy. I had a great time. Sage is surprisingly accommodating. Customer goodwill is cultivated and appreciated. They were really going out of their way to deal with just one person. ------------------------------------ Subject: RE: Cool Experience Sounds like an interesting tour - I'll have to take it sometime. Was the woman using a machine to wrap guides? Or doing it by hand with a rod cradle & tensioning device? Tom -------------- Subject: Re: Cool Experience She was basically doing it by hand, it was amazing. She had the blank in a chuck and motor, she spun it with a foot switch. She would start the thread, spin the thread on really, really fast, then insert the loop and finish spinning. She used a single edge razor blade to trim the thread ends. Wham, bam, done. The rotation speed was so fast I could not see the guide, it was just a blur. The guide said they did 25 rods a shift per person. Practice makes perfect. I know that most Winston Graphite's are wrapped by local Twin Bridges housewives. (Marty DeSapio) I used to watch June Hills wrap rods using a foot peddle machine and she could do a wrap in about 10 seconds perfect every time. (Bret Reiter) I remember a long time ago, seeing a glass rod maker's shop and he had a lady working with the rod held at nearly eye level in a chuck, turned by a foot controlled motor and she was winding just the same. So fast it was amazing. It only takes me about twenty five days to get the first wrap on then I slow down. (Ralph Moon) I wonder if you could make a rod wrapping machine from an old cabinet type sewing machine? (Ernie Harrison) I seem to recall someone telling me that they had a relative that wrapped rods for living. She worked out of her home, and, for the high end rods, she was paid $9 a rod. She could wrap 21 rods a day. I figure she has some job security because I'll never be able to challenge her. (Tim Wilhelm) There is a rod manufacturing company here in town that used to do about 70% of the name brand rods. All the rods were wrapped by housewives in their homes. They were paid per wrap. The rod company would apply the Flex coat on the wraps and pack the rods for shipment. They now manufacture their own blanks. (Tony Spezio) There was, many years back, a well known fly tier in West Yellowstone that tied flies with a foot pedal sewing machine. I saw her do it. She would sit and tie fly after fly with that thing. Ralph Moon will remember her name. I would think that if you can tie a fly you can wrap a rod. (Mark Dyba) Oh, of course.... Machines can be made to do about anything we want, I suppose. We can make them hydraulic, laser, or CNC - even fully robotic. Best of all, no doubt, would be to combine all these, and to have one such machine for each and every process Or how about a machine that would take a raw culm in one end and spit out a completely finished rod at its other? All we would need is a power switch and a good magazine to read. Come to think of it, maybe we could make a machine to cultivate the cane, convey it to our workshops, load the rodmaking machine, and turn the switch on for us. Then we would need only one more machine to develop our markets, package the rods, send them to their destinations, process the checks, pay the taxes and put the remaining profits into our banks. It's fun to daydream about machines, of course, but if actually making rods is the objective (and maybe, for some, it's not), it's pretty hard to beat using one's HANDS. For wrapping a rod, how about a simple wooden cradle and thread that's tensioned through the pages of a book? You wouldn't want to make a living doing it this way, but is that the point? (Bill Harms) I think Wes Jordan tried to build a machine that would take a culm in on one end and spit out blanks at the other when he was with South Bend. Don't know how far they got on it. (Brian Creek) You are playing my song! I make my rods by hand and listen to Mozart. I love the sound the plane makes. (Dave Norling)
Right now, I have my old Cabelas rod wrapper, and though I have made some modifications to it (better tensioners), is there one out there that would make my life easier? More important, is there an inexpensive one that could make my life easier? (Jeff Schaeffer) I use an old Thompson spool holder. Its simple, adjustable for large or small spools, and doesn't fray the thread. I clamp the holder to a piece of 2x1 pine, which is gripped in my bench vise. I think getting good wraps is a matter of practice, preparation of the guide feet, and attention to detail. When a wrap is complete I compress the turns with my thumb nail. I purposely over-wrap by 4 or 5 turns because I find the wrap compresses that much. If you've left a slight gap between one of the turns you can burnish the threads to spread and cover it. Every once in a while I get a thread turn climbing its neighbor. I usually don't see this until I've applied several coats of varnish to the wrap. Varnish magnifies your errors. I cut these off and redo it. (Ted Knott) I'll second what Ted has said. Russ Gooding donated one of the Golden Witch reproduction spool holders to SRG a coupla years ago. I bought it in the Silent Auction. That one change has made my wrapping much better. Well, might add to that another 30-40 rods worth of experience. I've bought a coupla the old Thompson/Herter's wrappers off eBay over the last few years at an average cost of $20. All are now gone to friends. (Harry Boyd) I've been looking for one of those old Thompson vises Ted and Harry spoke of. it looks like the way to go. Till I get one, I do it like everything else, by hand. I will say that one of the best tips was posted on the list. I can't remember who, but whoever you are, stand up and take a bow. Wet the the silk (I have no idea how wetting NYLON works). You can see all the wraps very clearly as you put them on. It is just a little more time consuming, but you can see what the end result will be as you wrap. I like it. (Mike Canazon) Sadly, I have had to admit defeat and buy bifocals to see what I'm wrapping. A large, lighted magnifier really helps as well. Ron Kusse maintains men can't be good wrappers and we should just hire a woman with the required manual dexterity and get on down the road. Not to be a sexist (just sexy) I think that there are enough studies in the books showing that the female of our species has much better fine motor skills than we males do to support this idea. I'm just too cheap to pay someone. (Brian Creek) I don't think it has to do with the dexterity as it has to do with patience. Men are not groomed from childhood to be patient, they are groomed to do things in the most time-efficient manner possible. Unfortunately, perfect wraps are not the most time-efficient way to attach snake guides. (Joe West) An anthropologist once explained this to me. Us men have hands and motor skills for things like clubbing mammoths, throwing spears, maybe even splitting a culm of bamboo. The womenfolk have slender, sensitive fingers for activities like gathering, weaving, and wrapping snake guides with 6/0 gossamer. (Tom Bowden) I had at least three other fancy wrapper which all promised faster and better results. They worked well with nylon but not with fine silks. For the last year I have been using the JD Wagner wrapper. It is simply a tensioner for four spools. The results have been better than fighting the machines. The only more complicated one I like is the Sully's. It is nice because you can stop in mid wrap. The best tools for wrapping in my opinion are MagEyes and an Ott light. Those made the biggest difference to my results. (Bob Maulucci) Mastering the tools you have is key to any successful job. Other tools may do it faster but these too must be mastered to produce the desired result which may or may not be better. My wrapper started out as a finish dryer and now incorporates a Netcraft #500 Rod-Wrap Kit. I find wrapping is easier when I have the tension just right for me. (Lee Koeser) I do not know if this will work for you, but my wraps improved greatly when I went to using a fly tying bobbin. I just start the wrap and let the bobbin dangle while I turn the rod and I use the free hand to pack the wraps against each other. The weight of the bobbin gives just about the right tension (at least for me). (Bill Bixler) It was just as I feared, the feedback on and off list suggests strongly that it isn't the device. Back to the wrapping bench for more practice. Come to think of it, most of the problems come when the shop is cold and I am trying to get a rod done by some deadline. Please excuse the whining... (Jeff Schaeffer) I strongly recommended regular doses of the amber fluid of your choice. You will not feel the cold, nor will you be as much of a perfectionist. No one will notice except an anal compulsive and they will find fault no matter what you do. It is their nature. they cant help it. If they can't find fault, they cease to exist. (Rich Jezioro)
I have used same thread, 00 silk, 00 nylon, 4x tippet (my current favorite), and continuous wraps varnished before cutting the tags off (what a joke that was!) Am I the only ham-handed wrapper out there? (Brian Creek) If there were a list contest for worst wraps, I would win. No contest, don't even try. There is/was a also a product by Gudebrod called "G-string" specifically designed to work for pull loops. Strong, but thin and designed to flatten under the silk. Howells raves about it in The Lovely Reed. I have never seen it for sale, or met anyone who had it. But it may exist. it probably works best with strippers, of course. Or you could just reduce thread tension. (Jeff Schaeffer) I wonder, I just only wonder, if dental floss may be rather like G string? I don't have any here, but someone who has may wish to experiment. (Robin Haywood) Have you tried nylon monofilament? I think the stuff I use occasionally is about 7 thousandths, about 4 lb. It's a bit springy and thick, but useful for things like spigot whips where I like to have the tail well caught! (Robin Haywood) I use strands of nylon i pick out of a thin nylon rope of Korean origin and used here to repair fishing nets. It comes in many colors, and the red is nice. With color preserver it is also nice in other colors. It is a bit thick, but that’s OK. In fact, I prefer it a bit thicker. (Geert Poorteman) I pull the thread through the tunnel of the guide foot, then I pull it to the corner of bamboo and then I cut thread. If you are breaking thread then either your tension is too tight or you pull to hard. There's a big difference between Gudebrod thread and YLI. (Dave Henney) I do the' same, but i put little tension on the thread when wrapping. I pull the thread trough to the second flat. (Geert Poorteman) No one else has ever had a problem with that, I don't understand why you would. I've always used a material that Clemens used to sell for loops. I don't know what it was, but it works. (Larry Blan) I use various threads as pull throughs, they all seem to work if the wraps aren't too-too tight. I like to have the pull-through loop under a good portion of the wraps, then as the whipping thread just catches under the wrap before it cut it off leaving a short stub which becomes buried when you pull it through. (Henry Bryan) I think this has gotta be one of the top ten little tips. Started doing this and saved loads of frustration and contumely! Sometimes it helps to pull toward oneself rather than perpendicular to the wraps. And if there is a little stub it can be smoothed down into the wraps w/ dental pick. (Darrol Groth) You know, I tried this and found I was getting a lot more disasters when doing the final burnish. Perhaps I was cutting the mini-tag too short. Just my 2 cents. (Joe West) I had the same trouble. I decided I was cutting the tag too short, seems to work better to get it under a bit more first, then cut. I wrap with Pearsalls Gossamer, because no one told me before my first rod that it was hard to work with. Ignorance is bliss. I usually pull the tag with the end I cut off when starting the wrap (or the one before, or the one before that). I have broken a few, but it seems to be at the exit point, and usually only when I try to use a pull thread too many times. (Neil Savage) I do make the wraps sorta tight. If I slack off how would they stay tight and smooth? (Brian Creek) Burnishing me boy, burnishing. Rule of thumb for tightness of wraps is that the guide should wiggle ever so slightly. I saw a post over on the Rodmaker magazine bulletin board the other day. They would set the thread tension by hanging a sack holding between 35 and 40 pennies for the nylon threads. I would guess you could use between 25 and 30 for Gossamer, and 30 to 35 pennies for threads like YLI. (Mark Wendt) Yeah, Geez Brian, I don't have that problem either. Must be the loose nut behind the thread... Try using Spiderwire in the smaller diameters. (Mark Wendt) I use 6x tippet. (Dewey Hildebrand) As far as I am concerned, there isn't anything better than Pearsalls Naples for the pulling thread. I started using it about a year ago and have had very little to complain about. I know most of the people reading this are probably cringing at the thought of using Pearsalls as a pulling loop but I think that it is thin enough to pass through the wraps unimpeded and strong enough to pull the tag end through without breaking. At $3.20 a spool it will last you literally years. I should qualify my statement by saying I wrap in silk and do not know if it will work with nylon. (Robert Cristant) May be something to that. I use Gossamer because I didn't know any better. Been using the same little strand for two rods now. It's got a nice little crimp in it - you know how you hate to change when you just start to get something broke in? (Darrol Groth) I use a EEZ-THRU FLOSS THREADERS (they are blue in color, made by Butler, and sold in drug stores) used to pull floss under tooth bridges to clean them. It is a tough piece of round plastic with a loop formed in one end and is about 4' long. When near the end of the whipping I insert the loop, wind over it, and when done feed the end of the thread through the loop and pull through. Makes a nice job and never breaks. Can also be used over and over again. (Jack Follweiler) They also work for bobbin threaders. But they are 4", not 4' long. (Neil Savage) Right on Neil they are indeed 4" long. (Jack Follweiler) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
