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Rule

Does anyone have a source for Duronze ferrules?  I'm trying to finish up a copy of an 8 wt that I cast at SRG this fall and would like to replicate the gold toned (gold nitride) hardware.  I can't find any source for ferrules with a goldish color and don't have the skills to make my own yet.  I need a 15/64's set for a 2/2 rod.  (Ralph Tuttle)

    I am turning the Winston Style ferrules in Duronze.  11/64 - 16/64.  These ferrules are a straight ferrule.  (Joe Byrd)

      I always thought the Duronze ferrules were the best thing about Winston rods.  Duronze ferrules are not as traditional as nickel silver, but they certainly have a lot going for them in terms of functionality.  Unless they were hand-finished by Jim Payne personally, traditional German silver ferrules are  always too darned tight,  unless (far worse!) they become too loose.  Absent Jim Payne, I'd advise going with Duronze.  (David Zincavage)

Rule

I’m making a run of spinning rods (believe it or not the entire run is sold) and needed some size 16/64 ferrules.

Well, I had some Duronze rod laying around and decided to try my hand at turning the ferrules from Duronze instead of n/s.  After an initial learning curve, and finally finding the right speed and feed ratios, they turned out amazingly nice.

It heats up more than the n/s when drilling and reaming, so you have to be extra careful.

I think I like the look of the Duronze over the n/s.  (Joe Byrd)

Rule

I just discovered another benefit of Duronze tonight.  I weighed two identical male ferrules.  One of N/S and the other of Duronze.  The Duronze was a full two grams lighter.  (Joe Byrd)

    Grams or grains? Two grams seems like a lot!

    Can Duronze be blackened (oxidized)?  (David Dziadosz)

      I used my scale that I weigh my coffee beans prior to roasting.  I double checked and it is grams.

      I have tried to blacken, but I will try.  (Joe Byrd)

        The same size Nickel Silver and Duronze, the Duronze is 1/3 lighter than nickel silver and meets or exceeds all other measurements in strength (yield, tensile, compression, etc).

        All the regular brass blackening  solutions that I have tried has worked, but Duronze oxidizes to a nice dark brown on it's own. I think Duronze blends into the bamboo color a lot nicer than nickel silver. I use Duronze ferrules on all my personal rods now, but I haven't tried making Duronze reel seats yet.  (Darryl Hayashida)

          Many months ago you mentioned that the Duronze quickly caused your drill bits to become dull. Is this still an issue? Where are you buying the Duronze? I might want to try it, but I am not sure what metal to buy if I go to onlinemetals.com or metalexpress.com, or if there is a cheaper source.  (Paul Franklyn)

            You are remembering the situation wrongly. I have made aluminum and Duronze ferrules for years with no problem. I recently started making nickel silver ferrules because a fishing buddy had heard that NS was the only thing ferrules should be made of, and that's what he wanted on a 6' four piece backpacking rod I was making for him. After making a couple NS ferrules my drills and reamers were dull. I remedied that by buying solid carbide drills, and the double twist ones cut a smooth enough hole that I don't need to use reamers.

            I get Duronze from www.mcmaster.com. Several aluminum bronze alloys are called Duronze, I use 642 aluminum bronze. One tip if you buy from Mcmaster-Carr - the six foot rods are expensive to ship. Will call it if you live close by a warehouse, or buy several at once so that they can put them all in the same shipping tube. (Darryl Hayashida)

              Really your tooling went dull? I have made dozens of ferrules and only use NS with out problem. What kind of cutting fluid are you using? And what is the difference in size from drilling and reaming are you allowing for? My reamers only kiss  the metal with heavy lubrication cut well for many ferrules. Maybe a change in cutting fluid would lengthen the life of you cutters.  (Adam Vigil)

                The drills and reamers had been used a lot on aluminum and Duronze before I used them on NS. All I can say is after a couple NS ferrules they were dull.  (Darryl Hayashida)

          What type of tooling do you need for the Duronze? Will stub drills and regular reamers work? Do you need to use cutting fluid?  (Steve Weiss)

            I use a better quality drill than the one you get in a regular hardware store, and high speed steel reamers are okay. I do use a lot of cutting fluid because Duronze does build up some heat when machining.  (Darryl Hayashida)

Rule

Are the Duronze ferrules used by Winston a "privy" item?  Haven't seen much said about them.  (Ed Riddle)

    The Duronze is great stuff for ferrules, that’s all I use now, here's a pic of a female ferrule that is being turned with Duronze.

    Druery, Kyle Duronze

    Stronger and harder than NS, 30% lighter, and better anti-galling and oxidation resistance properties.  (Kyle Druey)

      Anybody know what Duronze actually is? Is it Al Bronze called a snazzy name?  (Tony Young)

        I have seen 642 Al Bronze called Duronze on a couple web sites selling the stuff.  (Darryl Hayashida)

        It's a blend of Aluminum and copper with other stuff in depending on the type. It's not wonderfully machinable. But it can be machined with a little annoyance.  (John Zimny)

          I haven't found the Duronze to be terribly difficult to machine, a little harder to work with than NS.  Something that really helped was to bore ferrules with end mills instead of drills, just seem to cut smoother and with less heat.  My machinist skills are advanced beginner at best, but I have learned to deal with the material.  Probably the worst part of working with it is that you will sometimes get stuck with metal slivers.  (Kyle Druey)

    Duronze is copper alloy C64200, containing primarily copper, with some aluminum (7%) and a slight amount of silicon (2%), and traces of a few other metals such as iron, lead, nickel, and manganese.  Duronze is a registered trademark of Bridgeport Copper & Brass... you asked!  (Kyle Druey)

    Last Summer I was at the Winston shop and watched Jeff machine ferrules all afternoon. The only appreciable differences I saw in the machining process (besides the beautiful South Bend Turret Lathe) were the use of screw machine length spade drills for the rough drilling and a steady flow of coolant. I have done all my machining dry to this point with few exceptions, but Jeff said it makes all the difference when using the Duronze. I also saw the invoice for their stock and Kyle’s description of the alloy is dead on.

    I'll be there again this summer and I'll be sure to ask more questions (If they let me in this time!) No worries about the flow of information here- Glenn Brackett says the only secret to making rods is actually no secret at all- GOOD OL' FASHIONED HARD FREAKIN' WORK! (Eamon Lee)

      Last October, I stopped at Twin Bridges when Glenn was working on some female ferrules.  Have had a small Trico coolant pump with fine spray that I have been using on both N/S and Duronze for the past two years. Use Tri-Cool cutting fluid and it has worked fine. Glenn did agree that the enemy is heat.  (Jerry Young)

        Heat is the problem with the phosphor bronze I sometimes make ferrules with. NS just seems to turn and shape without too much worry but even with very sharp bits and cutters you really need to take your time and continue to flood the work with bronze in general it seems.  (Tony Young)

      I have found that when machining nickel silver, Crisco seems to work as really well for me. I have used both the vegetable oil based stuff and the lard based products with similar results.  I have also found that the initial polishing with 400 grit, working up to 1600 goes really well with the residue from the Crisco.  For final polishing I use 3M polishing papers in pink, gray and blue.  ( I don't have the product info with me, but I can get it later today) This stuff has a fine polishing product in the weave of the paper and it works very quickly and will give you a mirror finish.  (Mark Babiy)

      I found carbide drills to do a wonderful job on 642 Al Bronze. I don't have a constant flow of coolant, but generous drops of cutting oil as I drill helps a lot. Carbide reamers work well on the metal also. Problem is the cost of carbide tools is high. Thank goodness they last a long time.  (Darryl Hayashida)

    Here is the specification for 642 Al Bronze. Going by Kyle's description it is Duronze.

    Alloy 642

    Copper 88.8-90.8%
    Lead 0.05%
    Tin  0.2%
    Zinc  0.5%
    Aluminum  6.3-7.6%
    Iron  0.3%
    Nickel 0.25%
    Manganese 0.1%
    Phosphorous None
    Silicon 1.5-2.2%
    Bismuth None
    Other    0.15%  (Darryl Hayashida)

Rule

What, exactly, is Duronze?

I could postulate (its legal in the UK) that it might be a mixture of Duralumin and Bronze, but since they are both alloys of somewhat variable constituent parts (variable in % composition, I mean) that’s not progressed me very far.  (Robin Haywood)

    Duronze is a trademark of Ampco metals. It is commonly referred to as Silicon Aluminum Bronze, Alloy 642. If I had to put my hands on some by tomorrow, I'd call McMaster on this side of the pond. If you go to www.mcmaster.com and enter 642 bronze in the search field, it should pull it up.  (Larry Blan)

      Looks to me as if you have to machine them from solid stock.  Welding/soldering qualities don't look too good.  (Neil Savage)

    Duronze is an aluminum bronze alloy C64200, containing 6.3-7.6% aluminum, 1.5-2.2% silicon, and a few other trace elements.  You can view details here.    (Tim Preusch)

    Some time back someone on the list gave me a web site for Duronze. This place sold odd lots of cutoffs.

    I purchased a small lot of 3/8" approximately 10" long bars at a very reasonable price. I think the main company was in Michigan but the bars came from:

    Machinist Materials Inc.
    Northern Virginia Branch
    9358 Campbell Rd.
    Vienna, VA 22182

    I have made some ferrules for vintage rods from the bars. It is not the easiest metal to machine but it is not the hardest either.  (Tony Spezio)

Rule

Does anybody out there know of an English/European Supplier of Duronze bar (not sure I could stand the postage from the States)

I've been having a go at making ferrules recently and have turned a reasonable amount of metal bar in to scrap.  But can now just about get a consistent ferrule. (The job should be a bit easier with the "new" lathe; Good old eBay)

Can get hold of nickel silver with out to much trouble but Duronze is proving a bit tricky to find.  (Luke Bannister)

    Generically Duronze is an aluminum bronze alloy. The alloy I use is 642 aluminum bronze, but there are others. Maybe some of them are available to you. They are 954, 955, and 959 aluminum bronze. 955 has some nickel in the alloy. If I couldn't find 642 I would look for 954 next. I don't know enough about 955 and 959 to suggest which one might be better.  (Darryl Hayashida)

    Listed by Aalco as Aluminium Bronze and giving some useful materials specs.  No idea what size order they would want. There are others but I could not find the crowd I got a quote from a while back.   (Gary Nicholson)

Rule

I believe I've asked this before, without success, but I was hoping someone could, and would, share with us all the acceptable alloys for Duronze hardware. For instance would 655 silicone bronze work.  (Wayne Kifer)

    I asked Darryl Hayashida and he recommended Aluminum 642, Duronze, and that is what I use.  To answer your question I believe he researched different alloys as I remember reading his discussions in the archives. He concluded that Aluminum 642 makes an excellent substitute for Nickel Silver although it is a little bit more difficult to work with.  He also said Winston Rod Company came to the same conclusion and that they use 642.

    McMaster-Carr sells it.  (Doug Alexander)

      I've made a set of ferrules out of Duronze. I haven't worked with any NS yet, but the Duronze was very easy to turn, drill and ream. One note though, is anytime you're working with brass or any alloys like it make sure you have nice sharp drills.  (Mark Shamburg)

    What did you find for material and what was the source? Any info would be helpful.  (George Hills)

      www.mcmaster.com has Duronze (642 bronze) bar stock suitable for making ferrules.  (Mark Shamburg)

    Thanks to all for the excellent feedback on my questions on Duronze. Hardware resource problem solved. Now if I can just control myself to the point I don't think I have to make the stripping guides and tip tops I'll be in good shape. LOL  (Wayne Kifer)

Rule

Dumb question from a new member.

What is Duronze and who can supply?

I have searched the web for Duronze and get no responses.  I have not been able to source nickel silver in South Africa, maybe I will have better luck with Duronze.  (Gordon Gove)

    Duronze, probably a brand name,  is often called aluminum bronze.  (Paul Franklyn)

Rule

Thanks to those that responded to my questions on Duronze. However, after a look through the archives I didn't find any reference to how well it takes bluing, chemical staining, or electroplating. Might anyone shed a little light on this?  (Wayne Kifer)

    Duronze develops a patina that I think looks correct against the varying shades of bamboo.  The color neither attracts or detracts from the rod.  I like it natural and consider it an advantage over nickel silver which without bluing will shine like a mirror.  (Doug Alexander)

    You are right, my only Duronze ferrule (made for me by Rainer Jagusch, who reads these things but chooses not to contribute) is developing a much nicer patina than nickel "Silver," which remains tartily shiny or looking like its been left in a teapot, depending on whether you look after it or not. I do sometimes apply brass black, which works because its a bronze, not a silver, but it does go very black indeed. In the UK we don't have access to the range of soups you do in the USA, although I do have the recipes, all of which involve banned substances!   (Robin Haywood)

      How is this material when it comes to lapping?  Does it take longer or about the same as NS?  (Scott Bahn)

        Can't help you, Rainer said it was made to very close tolerances, and only a brief rub with wet'n dry used wet was necessary.  (Robin Haywood)

    I had a rod in my shop a while back, that had Duronze ferrules. The male was loose in the female. I built the male up with bronze electro plate and it matched the color of the Duronze. The guy was very happy with the job.

    You could bronze plate the guides. That would match the color of the Duronze ferrules.  (Dave LeClair)

    Seemed to take about the same time for the set I built. I also like the natural patina it takes on over time but I prefer the look of it blued nearly black using Fultz's TruBlu.  (Mark Shamburg)

Rule

Just received my order of Duronze and was surprised at the difference in color between the 3/8" and the 3/4". I expected it to darken with exposure to air, but hadn't realized it would go almost black with continuing oxidation. I know buffing will bring it back to it's lightest color but am wondering about maintaining whatever patina I prefer.

So, for the benefit of all that are new to this material I'd thought I bounce a few questions off those who are experienced with Duronze hardware. Is it preferable to leave it uncoated and do a periodic buffing, or coat it to prevent further oxidation? What would be the preferred coating? Does coating indeed prevent further oxidation or will it be necessary to replace the coating in the future? What is the time frame for uncoated metal to reach a medium dark patina, etc?

Obviously there are a number of variables and preferences involved but it's always good to know, in advance, what the available options are.  (Wayne Kifer)

    I've made Duronze ferrules on about 20 rods for 3 years and all mellow to a pale yellow gold, nothing darker. Perhaps that 3/4 inch rod stock you got was exposed for a lengthy time to a harsher environment than a ferrule would be in storage.  (Paul Franklyn)

    Maybe it got exposed to some kind of sulfur compound.  I know that will blacken brass and copper (and silver.)  (Neil Savage)

    I'm sure you're probably aware of the fact that Winston used Duronze ferrules on all their bamboo rods. If you want a medium dark patina, have given consideration to overwrapping the ferrules and varnish them? That's what Winston did on theirs. I don't know however if they did it to address tarnishing or if it was just one of their cosmetic trademarks. Then again, in the beginning at least, maybe they just did it to camouflage the fact that they weren't using nickel silver ferrules.  (Will Price)

Rule

Which Aluminum bronze do I want for ferrules - 954, 642, 630?  (Larry Lohkamp)

    642 is the one I use. That's what everyone else refers to. I get it from McMaster.  (Mike McGuire)

Rule

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